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burton wrote:

debian wrote:

gtmash wrote:Men and women meeting platonically in a car is a basic part of life, law or not.

it's a basic part of life in the west, muslims have a very different culture

Really? What is 'muslim culture'?

There are plenty of muslim countries where it is perfectly acceptable by law (there may be some social hesitancy) for men and women to meet by themselves in a car, cafe, house, public space etc.

As far as I am aware, (unrelated) men and women can meet as they please in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain...how many more do I have to name?

I think it is also legally accepable here in the UAE - unless you are suggesting that this is not an Islamic country!

Please do not confuse 'muslim culture' - whatever that is - with Saudi law.

Well said Burton

I am of a mind to transfer this to Politics/Religion if anyone objects please let me know otherwise i will do so by the end of tom

thanks

Mod

burton wrote:

rudeboy wrote:Rape does happen but it happens everywhere. Not only in KSA.

You're right.
But that's the whole point - the story is focusing on what has happened to the rape victim, after the rape. The rape is not the story.

That's why the media has taken such an interest. Not because the woman was raped, but because even after her ordeal she still recieved a punishment for breaking a specific law.

While there can be no doubt she broke that law, many many people - muslim and non-muslim alike - consider it strange and cruel, taking into account her circumstances.

Burton would the girl had been raped if she hadnt met the guy?

We all know she got raped after meeting them. What would have happened if SHE HADNT met?

arniegang wrote:I am of a mind to transfer this to Politics/Religion if anyone objects please let me know otherwise i will do so by the end of tom

thanks

Mod

Although it "is" a religion/social thread I think it has gotten some traction on this forum and it should remain here for now. The politics forum tends to be visited by only a few and hardly anyone posts there.

Remember, the more posters (different people) the better.

By the way, Shafique can shime in on this forum as he does from time to time.

More to the saga

The Saudi Clarification

thttp://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11 ... dex.htmlhe saga,

Note that her lawyer now faces 3 year suspension and disbarment!

Note a good time to be a lawyer in Saudi or Pakistan (might make some happy for other reasons... incuding Shakespeare)

burton wrote:Really? What is 'muslim culture'?

There are plenty of muslim countries where it is perfectly acceptable by law (there may be some social hesitancy) for men and women to meet by themselves in a car, cafe, house, public space etc.

As far as I am aware, (unrelated) men and women can meet as they please in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain...how many more do I have to name?

I think it is also legally accepable here in the UAE - unless you are suggesting that this is not an Islamic country!

Please do not confuse 'muslim culture' - whatever that is - with Saudi law.

I wasn't referring to any specific country's law, I said Islamic Sharia.
I am talking about Islam which prophet Muhammad and his companions had practiced.
It is repported that he said "this ummah [nation] will split into seventy-three sects, all of which will be in Hell apart from one." They asked, "Which one is that, O Messenger of Allaah?" He said, "Those who follow the path which I and my Companions are on today."

yes these countries are Islamic, even if there are some deviations they are still Islamic countries

pinoy1 wrote:My common senses still tell me that women in saudi are indeed suppressed.

The fact that women are still being raped inspite of the strict laws means that it's not working. I still think it's the men that should be educated about respect and the police making sure that no REAL crimes are committed.
It's like there's a desease and instead of finding a real cure for it (i.e. medicine), you order the citizens to just lock themselves up in their homes because they're the ones spreading the disease. lol.

You see, temptation may come from women but it's still up to the men if they'll do anything about it.

Crime Statistics > Rapes (most recent) by country
Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 United States: 89,110
#2 United Kingdom: 8,593
#3 Saudi Arabia: 87
Total: 97,790
Weighted average: 32,596.7



DEFINITION: Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.


SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/c ... d=uk&id=us

Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.

Between 1 in 4 women experienced completed or attempted rape during their college years (Fisher, Cullen, and Turner 2000).

In 2004 in the US, there were 209,880 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assaults. From the National Crime Victimization Survey.
84% of women did not report their rapes to police

According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports, rapes reported to police increased 0.8 percent in 2004. Since 2000, FBI totals show rapes reported to police up nearly 5%

http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/stats.html

Still think it's not working ?

Yes the men should work about it too, but at least help them by reducing the temptation which can for sure encourage rape
It's like teasing a kid with candy then beating him for eating it

"It's like teasing a kid with candy then beating him for eating it"

If this is how they think of men and women in Saudi then I rest my case.

Oh right they better rape somebody every 2.5 minutes instead of thinking this way

Okay pinoy1, whatever

take a look at the statistics again

I agree with pinoy1.

I just don't understand the 'candy' metaphor. This is rape, not sticking your hand in the cookie jar...

This whole 'women are such a temptation to men' angle is the weakest, lamest argument in history. I am not an advocate of feminist principles or ideology but when I read stuff like this, I sympathize greatly. Actually, this kind of thinking is very 'offensive' to men too.

Why? Because it is just so utterly, depressingly primitive. It takes us right back to the stone age...

There must be more than one species of man roaming around - because I am sure not the same as the one debian is talking about. Strangely enough, when I am in a quiet, small or secluded space with a woman I don't know, I am not overcome with the urge to rape them. I guess it's that quaint, old-fashioned concept of 'exercising self-control'...

I have a question for debian and rudeboy - lol, the great Saudi driving debate! Generally speaking, driving = greater personal freedom. In this sense, it is entirely appropriate to conclude that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia would again put them in more situations where they were in the vicinity/proximity of unrelated males. Therefore, do you also uphold the injunction against women driving in Saudi Arabia because of this reason?

I am curious...

debian wrote:DEFINITION: Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

You just shot down your own defence.

burton wrote:I agree with pinoy1.

I just don't understand the 'candy' metaphor. This is rape, not sticking your hand in the cookie jar...

This whole 'women are such a temptation to men' angle is the weakest, lamest argument in history. I am not an advocate of feminist principles or ideology but when I read stuff like this, I sympathize greatly. Actually, this kind of thinking is very 'offensive' to men too.

Why? Because it is just so utterly, depressingly primitive. It takes us right back to the stone age...

There must be more than one species of man roaming around - because I am sure not the same as the one debian is talking about. Strangely enough, when I am in a quiet, small or secluded space with a woman I don't know, I am not overcome with the urge to rape them. I guess it's that quaint, old-fashioned concept of 'exercising self-control'...

debian wrote:Of course not every man and woman alone are going to have s3x, but it can be a tempting situation for them

sexuality tends to be more associated with aggression and dominance in men than in women

although men typically desire both love and s3x, they are traditionally held to be more likely to desire s3x even in the absence of a loving relationship

paraphilias are more common in men than in women

men are relatively more easily aroused by visual stimuli than women, and are generally greater consumers of pornography than women

men are more likely than women to pay for s3x

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_male_sexuality

burton wrote:I have a question for debian and rudeboy - lol, the great Saudi driving debate! Generally speaking, driving = greater personal freedom. In this sense, it is entirely appropriate to conclude that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia would again put them in more situations where they were in the vicinity/proximity of unrelated males. Therefore, do you also uphold the injunction against women driving in Saudi Arabia because of this reason?

I am curious...

This is a very controversial subject. I didn't mention proximity of unrelated males, of course that will happen in public places such as shopping malls and such. I meant being alone in a closed place

gtmash wrote:

debian wrote:DEFINITION: Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

You just shot down your own defence.

Keep reading

debian wrote:84% of women did not report their rapes to police

According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports, rapes reported to police increased 0.8 percent in 2004. Since 2000, FBI totals show rapes reported to police up nearly 5%

debian wrote:

burton wrote:I have a question for debian and rudeboy - lol, the great Saudi driving debate! Generally speaking, driving = greater personal freedom. In this sense, it is entirely appropriate to conclude that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia would again put them in more situations where they were in the vicinity/proximity of unrelated males. Therefore, do you also uphold the injunction against women driving in Saudi Arabia because of this reason?

I am curious...

This is a very controversial subject. I didn't mention proximity of unrelated males, of course that will happen in public places such as shopping malls and such. I meant being alone in a closed place

OK fair enough. But to be honest, it's the same root issue - personal freedoms, personal liberties. And the prevention of vice. The reason women in Saudi aren't allowed to drive is not because the law thinks they don't know how to! It's because the law deems it inappropiate -inappropiate freedom and independance relative to a woman.

If women did drive, I am pretty sure such encounters between the sexes would become easier - than not...

That's why I asked if you supported the ban. Because it's another form of 'prevention'. A pre-emptive action - something which you seem very keen on...

This made it to BBC News today.
In response to an appeal the
Males' sentences have been increased to 5 years jail and the
Female's sentence has been increased to 6 months jail.

I was of the understanding that the koran only forbids a male and female who are not married having a physical relationship.
What's wrong with the girl talking to a guy to ascertain if she likes him or not?

I suspect that we are only hearing the begining of this.

benwj wrote:This made it to BBC News today.
In response to an appeal the
Males' sentences have been increased to 5 years jail and the
Female's sentence has been increased to 6 months jail.

I was of the understanding that the koran only forbids a male and female who are not married having a physical relationship.
What's wrong with the girl talking to a guy to ascertain if she likes him or not?

I suspect that we are only hearing the begining of this.

Come on guys. Rape happens everywhere. We all know that CNN is making a huge FUSS out of it cos Saudi = muslim country. Muslims = ISLAMIC Fundamentalist. Saudi ARabia = Home Land of Osama Bin Ladin.

Osama Bin Ladin = Muslim. Saudi Arabia = USAs FRIEND for YEARS.

Saudi Arabia = gives USA lots and lots of Oil USA = Gives lots of MONEY MONEY MONEY to KSA.
KSA = Leaders are appointed by USA. thats right USA. guys rape does happen everywhere.

But ask yourself this. Would the girl had been raped if she had followed the rule of not meeting a guy? no i dont want to hear anything else. Simple just answer WOULD the guy had been raped if she HADNT MET THE GUY?

Come on guys lets talk about something better. hmmm like england crashing out of Euro 2008 .

you are missing the point rudeboy.

Forget all of the bull shit propaganda coming out of CNN etc. You sound as bad as them.

No one denies that rape occurs everywhere.

And there are still instances where the girl gets some of the blame and the justice system fails.

But the law itself is very clear in that there is no excuse for rape.

That's the difference.

Islamic law places some of the blame on the female.

That's the problem.

So my question remains.

why does the west want to enforce its ideologies among others, doesn't that contradict with the ideology itself of freedom and tolerance that they keep preaching all the time ?

debian wrote:So my question remains.

why does the west want to enforce its ideologies among others, doesn't that contradict with the ideology itself of freedom and tolerance that they keep preaching all the time ?

Why does Saudi persist with rules that have nothing to do with Islam?

i.e. why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day?

^ian^ wrote:

debian wrote:So my question remains.

why does the west want to enforce its ideologies among others, doesn't that contradict with the ideology itself of freedom and tolerance that they keep preaching all the time ?

Why does Saudi persist with rules that have nothing to do with Islam?

i.e. why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day?

That is not an answer to my question. That's another question that diverts the discussion to a different topic

^ian^ wrote:Why does Saudi persist with rules that have nothing to do with Islam?

i.e. why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day?

Friends in Saudi tell me it because they want to stay in power and maintain their control over the population.

They drew parallels with what is happening in Burma, (and I suppose what is happening now in Pakistan).

Sadly, it has little to do with religion - except that it is being used or rather misused for this purpose.
[I haven't read the rest of the thread.. so I'll bow out here.. ]

Cheers,
Shafique

rude, debian

Why you are sticking up for Saudi law? The judiciary? Some judge somewhere in Saudi? This is what I don't get...

Why don't you stick up for the young Saudis - men and women, but especially women - who are against this kind of legal application, against the kind of ruling which has happened?

Lol! rude, mate, especially you - you sound a bit 'streetz', a bit of a well...rudeboy, you know - givin it some and all that. Nah but seriously, I can imagine you talking about your 'sistas' and 'brothas', the life of young muslims in a post 9-11 world, American media manipulation (many of these points which I don't diagree with btw) etc etc - but why take the side of the faceless, monolithic law?? Without wanting to almost trivialize it - THE MAN. Why would you do that?

One of my closest friends here in Dubai is Saudi. True, he was almost bought up in the UK, has a British passport, but he is still 100% Saudi. What do you think he says about this case? Of course he says the girl shouldn't have met the guy - that's the law! But what else do you think he says...

My support lies with the people, the individuals - the young guys of my generation. Not some judge...

debian wrote:

^ian^ wrote:

debian wrote:So my question remains.

why does the west want to enforce its ideologies among others, doesn't that contradict with the ideology itself of freedom and tolerance that they keep preaching all the time ?

Why does Saudi persist with rules that have nothing to do with Islam?

i.e. why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day?

That is not an answer to my question. That's another question that diverts the discussion to a different topic

Perhaps, but can you answer the question? It's just as relevant to the topic.

why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day?

^ian^ wrote:Perhaps, but can you answer the question? It's just as relevant to the topic.

why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day?

This is the second time you avoid to answer and dodge the question ... but nevermind.

As I said earlier it's not allowed to be alone with unrelated opposite gender and again this is also for men not only women. Actually the prophet was addressing men in the hadith
"No man should be alone with a (non-mahram) woman unless her mahram is also present" (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5233; Muslim, 1341).
A "mahram" is a relative like father, brother, son, husband etc. And this is for the protection of women

So it's not about the car, cars have nothing to do with this

^ian^ wrote:

debian wrote:she made a mistake and caused 7 others to commit a capital sin.

This is the contentious bit. Nobody 'causes' themselves to have a crime of this nature perpetrated against them.

7 guys weren't just sitting around, saw her and go, 'oh crap, dude, we need to rape this women because of what she has done.'

The government statement said that according to the woman's signed confession, she called a man on her cell phone and "asked to be with him alone, illegally." The two met at a marketplace, then rode in the man's car to "a dark area of the beach, and stayed there for some time," the ministry said.

The group of attackers "saw her in a compromising situation, her clothes on the ground," the statement said. "The men at this point assaulted her and the man with her."

Looks like this is what happened after all

After the incident, the woman and the man did not come forward about the assaults or press charges until someone contacted the woman's husband "telling him what happened, and about his wife's affair and adultery," the ministry said. "She then confessed ... the husband therefore came forward to the police and formally complained nearly three months after the incident."

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/24/saudi.rape/index.html

She confessed later

Riyadh: The Saudi Justice Ministry announced that a girl gang raped by seven men and then sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes for adultery had confessed to cheating on her husband, in its latest response to the negative international reaction to the incident.
...
"The charged girl is a married woman who confessed to having an affair with the man she was caught with."

http://www.gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi_arabia/10170394.html

debian wrote:The group of attackers "saw her in a compromising situation, her clothes on the ground," the statement said. "The men at this point assaulted her and the man with her." Looks like this is what happened after all

What a sick sick place that must be then with a people with sick and compromised values.

This isn't Islam or even justice... it's barbaric.

Rapists are everywhere and sure not all the people there are like this, those are criminals who got punished. The court was right, the media shouldn't have interfered and made all this fuss

debian wrote:Rapists are everywhere and sure not all the people there are like this, those are criminals who got punished. The court was right, the media shouldn't have interfered and made all this fuss

Rapists are everywhere, but nobody ever deserved to be raped or 'brought it on themselves'.

^ian^ wrote:

debian wrote:Rapists are everywhere and sure not all the people there are like this, those are criminals who got punished. The court was right, the media shouldn't have interfered and made all this fuss

Rapists are everywhere, but nobody ever deserved to be raped or 'brought it on themselves'.

I never said she deserved to be raped but she sure deserves punishment if the story is true. She was alone with that man and had an affair with him, add to that that she's engaged

Hypocrisy thy homeland is middle east . Dont tell me saudi is a great country and they follow all the rules.. Their own guys flock all over Bahrain and dubai during the weekends to have all kinda activities. It is just an example of how barbaric the country is with it's male centric rules. The worst part is those who try to see the religious angle to it. Such a shame.. I wonder if these guys who argue for the law ever meet women in their lives.