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^ian^ wrote:

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.

Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given.

Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.

a guy and a girl in a car in some place having sex. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.

y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".

there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in.

rudeboy wrote:

^ian^ wrote:

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.

Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given.

Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.

a guy and a girl in a car in some place having love. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.

y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".

there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in.

I could leave it to the actual legal eagles on the forum but here's a quick summary of how it would work.

Firstly the police would look to see if signs of a struggle took place.
They would take down the version of events from both witnesses.
They would look into the history of them individuals... i.e. do they both know each other? how well?

They would look at the facts and then form a judgement as to whether it is worth proceeding.

burton wrote:

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not?

Rudeboy

Despite the phenomena of 'fabricated rape', most women who call police, go to court, go through the horrible procedure of having their ordeal made public claiming they have been raped - have been.

To be honest mate, with all this crap talk about 'but how can you trust them?' you are starting to sound like a bit of an idiot. That, or a wind-up merchant.

If it's the latter, well done etc you're a really funny guy...

burton :S what you want me to say??

Very harsh punishment indeed!

In my opinion, rape victims are victimized twice by the alleged rapist and by going on the humiliating process of proving their case in court especially if the court is dominated by male juries. Bringing your case in court is not a joke, except the cases mentioned by Burton.

I admire the Saudi lady for coming forward to complain and fight for her case despite the consequences that she has to face. I've read books written by Jean Sasson. In some intances, Saudi family will usually lock the lady like a jailbird in their own home for doing what they consider a "disgrace" to their family. In this case, I wonder if the girl can still lead a normal life in Saudi after serving her ordeal plus the 200 lashes.

rudeboy wrote:

^ian^ wrote:

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.

Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given.

Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.

a guy and a girl in a car in some place having love. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.

y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".

there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in.

Dude, if you watched CSI, you'd know that consentual and rape leave different sorts of "damage" on the woman right after the event. Sure, the show is fictional but at least that part makes sense. And 7 frigging guys?

gtmash wrote:

rudeboy wrote:

^ian^ wrote:

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.

Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given.

Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.

a guy and a girl in a car in some place having love. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.

y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".

there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in.

Dude, if you watched CSI, you'd know that consentual and rape leave different sorts of "damage" on the woman right after the event. Sure, the show is fictional but at least that part makes sense. And 7 frigging guys?

err I have said that the girl in THIS saudi case was raped. But I am also saying that there are fabricated rape stories. come on gtsmash keep up mate and the story is saying the girl was lashed 200 times cos she met the guys. Isnt the law there to protect her from sick minded guys in the society? if she had obeyed the law would she have gotten raped? err I dont think so.

The whole thing could have been avoided if she hadn't went to meet the guy, which is what the law states

debian wrote:The whole thing could have been avoided if she hadn't went to meet the guy, which is what the law states

She might have avoided being raped, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be raped.

rudeboy wrote:err I have said that the girl in THIS saudi case was raped. But I am also saying that there are fabricated rape stories. come on gtsmash keep up mate and the story is saying the girl was lashed 200 times cos she met the guys. Isnt the law there to protect her from sick minded guys in the society? if she had obeyed the law would she have gotten raped? err I dont think so.

How about this strange concept of "Freedom".

Freedom of the woman to meet whomever she wants, whenever she wants, etc.

You want to make guys think twice about raping anyone? How about capital punishment - public execution for those seven guys. That would be after public castration!

Concord wrote:How about this strange concept of "Freedom".

The problem is such a concept of freedom doesn't exist in Saudi.... or Sharjah! for that matter.

(CNN) -- A Saudi Arabian human rights attorney is asking the government to allow him to represent a woman who was gang-raped -- and then sentenced to prison for speaking out about the case.


Human rights groups want Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah to drop charges against the rape victim.

The attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, had his license revoked last week by a judge for speaking to the Saudi-controlled media about the case, al-Lahim told CNN.

The judge more than doubled the sentence against al-Lahim's 19-year-old client because she spoke to the media about the case, a court source told Arab News, an English-language Middle Eastern daily newspaper.

The woman -- who was initially sentenced in October 2006 to 90 lashes -- had her sentenced increased to 200 lashes and was ordered to serve six months in prison under Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic law.

"We were shocked," al-Lahim said of the increased sentence.

CNN has been unable to reach Saudi government officials for comment on this report, despite repeated requests. Watch the emotional toll the crime took on the rape victim »

Al-Lahim had petitioned the court to sentence the attackers to the death penalty, but instead the court agreed to increase their jail sentences, which had been two to three years, to two to nine years, al-Lahim said.

The case has sparked outrage among human rights groups.

"Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights.

"This is not just about the girl, it's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," she said. "We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there. We're afraid of going out in the streets."

Human Rights Watch said it has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah "to immediely void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer."

The woman, who is married, and an unrelated man were abducted and she was raped by a group of seven men more than a year ago, the lawyer said. The male victim was also given an increased sentence of 200 lashes and six months in prison, al-Lahim said.

The man and woman were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was trying to retrieve was harmless and did not show his client in any compromising position.

Al-Lahim said the man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.

Al-Lahim has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month, where he faces a possible three-year suspension and disbarment, according to Human Rights Watch.

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He told CNN he has appealed to the Ministry of Justice to reinstate his law license and plans to meet with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh.

"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," he said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."

He said the handling of the case is a direct contradiction of judicial reforms announced by the Saudi king earlier this month.

"The Ministry of Justice needs to have a very clear standing regarding this case because I consider this decision to be judiciary mutiny against the reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions," he said.

Saudi Arabia's Islamic law or sharia is not written and, therefore, subject to a wide array of interpretations. Human Rights Watch points out that a judge in Jeddah threw out a lawyer simply because he was a member of the Ismaili faith, a branch of Shia Islam.

Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.

The Saudi government recently has taken some steps toward bettering the situation of women in the kingdom, including the establishment earlier this year of special courts to handle domestic abuse cases, adoption of a new labor law that addresses working women's rights and creation of a human rights commission.

Christoph Wilcke of Human Rights Watch praised the female rape victim and her attorney for speaking out about the case, which he said may be indicative of "many injustices that we still don't know about."

"It's not only one court, it is the Saudi government that is fully behind punishing a woman who's been raped [and] punishing the lawyer who's trying to help her and doing that both because they've spoken to the media," Wilcke told CNN. "And if they hadn't spoken to the media, we wouldn't know about it."

Shying away from criticism of key ally, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called the case and the punishment "surprising" and "astonishing."


"While this is a judicial procedure -- part of a judicial procedure -- overseas in courts outside of our country, still while it is very difficult to offer any detailed comment about this situation, I think most people would be quite astonished by the situation, " McCormack said.

"I can't get involved in specific court cases in Saudi Arabia dealing with its own citizens. But most people here would be quite surprised to learn of the circumstances and then the punishment meted out," he said. E-mail to a friend

The saga continues...

(CNN) -- A Saudi Arabian human rights attorney is asking the government to allow him to represent a woman who was gang-raped -- and then sentenced to prison for speaking out about the case.


Human rights groups want Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah to drop charges against the rape victim.

The attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, had his license revoked last week by a judge for speaking to the Saudi-controlled media about the case, al-Lahim told CNN.

The judge more than doubled the sentence against al-Lahim's 19-year-old client because she spoke to the media about the case, a court source told Arab News, an English-language Middle Eastern daily newspaper.

The woman -- who was initially sentenced in October 2006 to 90 lashes -- had her sentenced increased to 200 lashes and was ordered to serve six months in prison under Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic law.

"We were shocked," al-Lahim said of the increased sentence.

CNN has been unable to reach Saudi government officials for comment on this report, despite repeated requests. Watch the emotional toll the crime took on the rape victim »

Al-Lahim had petitioned the court to sentence the attackers to the death penalty, but instead the court agreed to increase their jail sentences, which had been two to three years, to two to nine years, al-Lahim said.

The case has sparked outrage among human rights groups.

"Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights.

"This is not just about the girl, it's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," she said. "We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there. We're afraid of going out in the streets."

Human Rights Watch said it has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah "to immediely void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer."

The woman, who is married, and an unrelated man were abducted and she was raped by a group of seven men more than a year ago, the lawyer said. The male victim was also given an increased sentence of 200 lashes and six months in prison, al-Lahim said.

The man and woman were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was trying to retrieve was harmless and did not show his client in any compromising position.

Al-Lahim said the man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.

Al-Lahim has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month, where he faces a possible three-year suspension and disbarment, according to Human Rights Watch.

Don't Miss
Saudi court ups punishment for gang-rape victim
Saudi King's U.K. visit draws protests
He told CNN he has appealed to the Ministry of Justice to reinstate his law license and plans to meet with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh.

"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," he said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."

He said the handling of the case is a direct contradiction of judicial reforms announced by the Saudi king earlier this month.

"The Ministry of Justice needs to have a very clear standing regarding this case because I consider this decision to be judiciary mutiny against the reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions," he said.

Saudi Arabia's Islamic law or sharia is not written and, therefore, subject to a wide array of interpretations. Human Rights Watch points out that a judge in Jeddah threw out a lawyer simply because he was a member of the Ismaili faith, a branch of Shia Islam.

Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.

The Saudi government recently has taken some steps toward bettering the situation of women in the kingdom, including the establishment earlier this year of special courts to handle domestic abuse cases, adoption of a new labor law that addresses working women's rights and creation of a human rights commission.

Christoph Wilcke of Human Rights Watch praised the female rape victim and her attorney for speaking out about the case, which he said may be indicative of "many injustices that we still don't know about."

"It's not only one court, it is the Saudi government that is fully behind punishing a woman who's been raped [and] punishing the lawyer who's trying to help her and doing that both because they've spoken to the media," Wilcke told CNN. "And if they hadn't spoken to the media, we wouldn't know about it."

Shying away from criticism of key ally, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called the case and the punishment "surprising" and "astonishing."


"While this is a judicial procedure -- part of a judicial procedure -- overseas in courts outside of our country, still while it is very difficult to offer any detailed comment about this situation, I think most people would be quite astonished by the situation, " McCormack said.

"I can't get involved in specific court cases in Saudi Arabia dealing with its own citizens. But most people here would be quite surprised to learn of the circumstances and then the punishment meted out," he said. E-mail to a friend

Unfortunately such cries from the 'west' will just make the Saudis solidify their stance, in an effort to protect their 'values'.

debian wrote:The whole thing could have been avoided if she hadn't went to meet the guy, which is what the law states

Men and women meeting platonically in a car is a basic part of life, law or not.

gtmash wrote:Men and women meeting platonically in a car is a basic part of life, law or not.

it's a basic part of life in the west, muslims have a very different culture

^ian^ wrote:Unfortunately such cries from the 'west' will just make the Saudis solidify their stance, in an effort to protect their 'values'.

Why does the west want to force its lifestyle among them anyway ? What happened to the freedom and tolerance ?

EDIT: formatting

debian wrote:

gtmash wrote:Men and women meeting platonically in a car is a basic part of life, law or not.

it's a basic part of life in the west, muslims have a very different culture

gtmash wrote:Unfortunately such cries from the 'west' will just make the Saudis solidify their stance, in an effort to protect their 'values'.

Why does the west want to force its lifestyle among them anyway ? what happened to the freedom and tolerance ?

Firstly I said that, not gtmash... please learn to quote properly.

With respect to what happened with freedom and tolerance.. that's a great question. You answer first.

^ian^ wrote:Firstly I said that, not gtmash... please learn to quote properly.

With respect to what happened with freedom and tolerance.. that's a great question. You answer first.

I was just editing but you caught me.
Anyway I never advocated such concepts, the west does

debian wrote:

^ian^ wrote:Firstly I said that, not gtmash... please learn to quote properly.

With respect to what happened with freedom and tolerance.. that's a great question. You answer first.

I was just editing but you caught me.
Anyway I never advocated such concepts, the west does

So you don't believe in freedom or tolerance?

Saudi men must be lacking in values such as respect and self-control (sexual restraint) so the government needed to "protect" their women from them in the way that has just been demonstrated.
Instead of instilling good values and behaviour in men when they are around women, they try to suppress the women instead.

Yes, she might not have been raped if she did not meet the guy, but she might have been if she didn't either.

The best way to protect women is to let the men know how bad raping a woman is, and not preventing women to associate with men- which seem to be a normal thing not only in the west.

^ian^ wrote:So you don't believe in freedom or tolerance?

Nope, I told you we are from very different cultures. Well, not in the materialistic way of the west. These concepts originated from atheism (which later led to secularism).
Prophet Muhammad said: "This world is a prison for the believer and a paradise for the kaafir (non-believer)" since People who don't believe in God or in punishment/reward in the hereafter don't care about "rules" set by religion so they are free to do whatever they want
Take adultery for example, freedom justifies adultery in the name of love, there is nothing wrong as long as both the man and the woman agrees, but in Islam this is a sin (crime) so yes muslims don't believe in the western freedom because they submit to God.

Now why does the west want to force its lifestyle among others, isn't that against the freedom and tolerance they keep preaching ?

pinoy1 wrote:Saudi men must be lacking in values such as respect and self-control (sexual restraint) so the government needed to "protect" their women from them in the way that has just been demonstrated.
Instead of instilling good values and behaviour in men when they are around women, they try to suppress the women instead.

Yes, she might not have been raped if she did not meet the guy, but she might have been if she didn't either.

The best way to protect women is to let the men know how bad raping a woman is, and not preventing women to associate with men- which seem to be a normal thing not only in the west.

The rule does not only apply on "suppresses" women, men also get punished for being alone with unrelated women and they do know how bad raping a woman is but in real life women can be a great temptation for men. For women to be aroused they have first to be emotionally and psychologically prepared and accepting the partner but men can be turned on in seconds just by the sight of an attractive stranger woman or even by the very thought of it.
This is every normal human male's behavior not only saudis. I'm sure you know about all these teen magazines talking about how "pervert" men are.
Restricting situations when men and women can be alone together will definitely reduce rape cases especially in a culture where masturbation is forbidden and marriage is the only sexual relief.
Of course not every man and woman alone are going to have s3x, but it can be a tempting situation for them

Again the law cares about eliminating root causes instead of waiting for a crime to happen then dealing with it

^ian^ wrote:

debian wrote:The whole thing could have been avoided if she hadn't went to meet the guy, which is what the law states

She might have avoided being raped, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be raped.

someone else wouldnt be raped as long as they obey the rules and laws.

pinoy1 wrote:Saudi men must be lacking in values such as respect and self-control (sexual restraint) so the government needed to "protect" their women from them in the way that has just been demonstrated.
Instead of instilling good values and behaviour in men when they are around women, they try to suppress the women instead.

Yes, she might not have been raped if she did not meet the guy, but she might have been if she didn't either.

The best way to protect women is to let the men know how bad raping a woman is, and not preventing women to associate with men- which seem to be a normal thing not only in the west.

Pinoy the Saudi Men will be spending 7 to 10 years in prison read the story. The saudi men are not being let off. They will be PUNISHED for their crime. so that next time they do plan of committing a crime they will think about it twice.

The girl is not being LASHED for being RAPED. she is being lashed for meeting the guys. The law was there to protect her, her dignity and her respect from some sick minded individuals in the society. Instead she wanted "freedom" and the rape resulted. What troubles me the most is y CNN making a huge fuss out of it? Y doesnt CNN cover a story how a woman in New York is raped in DAY LIGHT and no1 comes to protect her, nor does the CNN address it. Y?

I agree there are some laws which wouldnt make sense to a western. Even laws in UAE. But those laws have been there for decades centuries. Because of these laws the no of rape is low. no of murder cases are low, no of burgulary is low. These laws are HARSH and may seem strange to you but they only to bring peace in a society. If it wasnt for such laws I dont think you and me would be able to walk safely at 2am on the streets of dubai.

There are rotten apples everywhere. Even in the west. But i dont see the CNN addressing the rape and HIV issue there?

Yes the time is changing and women in saudi want freedom. as time goes along i m sure they will get the freedom to vote and drive. But these things take time.

There are rotten apples everywhere. In the western women are treated WORSE then in the middle east. Their husbands will drink and bash the daylights out of their wifes in front of the children. I m not saying it doesnt happen in the Middle East. it does. Non of us are perfect. But the sad fact is CNN are not doing their jobs properly and are disgracing Islam once again.

debian wrote:

gtmash wrote:Men and women meeting platonically in a car is a basic part of life, law or not.

it's a basic part of life in the west, muslims have a very different culture

Really? What is 'muslim culture'?

There are plenty of muslim countries where it is perfectly acceptable by law (there may be some social hesitancy) for men and women to meet by themselves in a car, cafe, house, public space etc.

As far as I am aware, (unrelated) men and women can meet as they please in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain...how many more do I have to name?

I think it is also legally accepable here in the UAE - unless you are suggesting that this is not an Islamic country!

Please do not confuse 'muslim culture' - whatever that is - with Saudi law.

rudeboy wrote:I agree there are some laws which wouldnt make sense to a western. Even laws in UAE. But those laws have been there for decades centuries. Because of these laws the no of rape is low. no of murder cases are low, no of burgulary is low. These laws are HARSH and may seem strange to you but they only to bring peace in a society. If it wasnt for such laws I dont think you and me would be able to walk safely at 2am on the streets of dubai.

But nobody is complaining about UAE laws pertaining to rape. You are right, Dubai is fantastically safe and everybody here appreciates that fact greatly.

But this is not due to any law which prohibits unrelated men and women from meeting each other - and punishes them, severely, if they do.

My common senses still tell me that women in saudi are indeed suppressed.

The fact that women are still being raped inspite of the strict laws means that it's not working. I still think it's the men that should be educated about respect and the police making sure that no REAL crimes are committed.
It's like there's a desease and instead of finding a real cure for it (i.e. medicine), you order the citizens to just lock themselves up in their homes because they're the ones spreading the disease. lol.

You see, temptation may come from women but it's still up to the men if they'll do anything about it.

burton wrote:

rudeboy wrote:I agree there are some laws which wouldnt make sense to a western. Even laws in UAE. But those laws have been there for decades centuries. Because of these laws the no of rape is low. no of murder cases are low, no of burgulary is low. These laws are HARSH and may seem strange to you but they only to bring peace in a society. If it wasnt for such laws I dont think you and me would be able to walk safely at 2am on the streets of dubai.

But nobody is complaining about UAE laws pertaining to rape. You are right, Dubai is fantastically safe and everybody here appreciates that fact greatly.

But this is not due to any law which prohibits unrelated men and women from meeting each other - and punishes them, severely, if they do.

I agree with you. Some islamic countrys are moderate. Hell if you go to Turkey you will see them drink liquor in PUBLIC and dance and whatever. I agree with you that a girl and a guy can meet in other muslim countrys. I am sure you can do that here as well. Saudis laws are strange. But you have to remember saudi arabia is the birth place of islam. So women will be restricted from doing certain things such as meeting guys or drive. That is the LAW of Saudi Arabia and we should respect that. Same way if a muslim goes to England or USA does he complain oh these guys drink and that? Do they? no they dont they abide by the laws of the country. some dont some do. Same way you should abide with the laws. I know its abit tough but thats it the laws are there to protect and bring harmony in a society.
Yes girls can go and meet guys in UAE, Indonesia and Malaysia. but if they are caught doing something its a different story. Each country has different laws. some are strange some do not make sense while others do. But u have to respect them.

pinoy1 wrote:My common senses still tell me that women in saudi are indeed suppressed.

The fact that women are still being raped inspite of the strict laws means that it's not working. I still think it's the men that should be educated about respect and the police making sure that no REAL crimes are committed.
It's like there's a desease and instead of finding a real cure for it (i.e. medicine), you order the citizens to just lock themselves up in their homes because they're the ones spreading the disease. lol.

You see, temptation may come from women but it's still up to the men if they'll do anything about it.

Yes women are suppressed in Saudi. But not in saudi in other parts of islamic countrys. Y doesnt CNN address that? in pakistan women are gang raped and the criminals arent even PUNISHED. I dont see CNN reporting about it? Y? Maybe because Pakistan is USAs "friend". Atleast the 7 guys in KSA are punished as well. They will be spending 7 to 10 years in prison. Yes rape does happen in Islamic countrys. We are not perfect. Nor is the West perfect. Click on the link below. The guy killed 2 girls aged 15 in 1980 and burys them in his garden. I am sure he must have raped, molested and then finally killed them.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 72,00.html

But the reality is that he gets caught 27 years after what he did. Isnt it abit LATE? tell me have u heard of this stuff in KSA? Rape does happen but it happens everywhere. Not only in KSA.

rudeboy wrote:Rape does happen but it happens everywhere. Not only in KSA.

You're right.
But that's the whole point - the story is focusing on what has happened to the rape victim, after the rape. The rape is not the story.

That's why the media has taken such an interest. Not because the woman was raped, but because even after her ordeal she still recieved a punishment for breaking a specific law.

While there can be no doubt she broke that law, many many people - muslim and non-muslim alike - consider it strange and cruel, taking into account her circumstances.

The issue I have is the idea she brought it on herself with her behaviour.

What a load of crap.