Rapture

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Rapture Nov 01, 2009
Rapture is a concept in Christianity that fascinates me ever since I saw an episode of Law and Order which dealt with a church who believed in this concept.

In brief, the belief that is before the second coming of Jesus - those 'deserving' Christians who are truly following Christianity will be whisked away and will appear to disappear from earth.

It may be a primarily American belief - but I'm not sure. It seems a bit 'far out' to me - and the wiki entry for Rapture makes interesting reading (but I haven't really studied this subject).

It is interesting also to read the various predictions that have been made for when rapture will occur:

Some notable rapture predictions include the following:
1792 - Shakers calculated this date.[citation needed]
1844 - William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. Miller's theology gave rise to the Advent movement.
1977 - William M. Branham predicted in 1962 that the Rapture could take place by 1977[citation needed]
1981 - Chuck Smith predicted that Jesus would likely return by 1981.[citation needed]
1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.
1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for 1992, 1995, and other years.
1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.[37]
1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.
1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994.[38]
1997 /2009 - In 1983 Richard Schiller (aka Elijah) claimed parallel alignment to all the WatchTower did with the 94 years of the rebuilt Jerusalem 537-443 BC as 1914-2008 AD. In this span of 49 Jubilees (Daniel's 7 weeks) as a 50th it fell on events for every event recorded everywhere in OT which ends with Artaxerxes 32nd year (Nehemiah & Malachi). He felt the events of year 20 equating 455 BC with 1996 AD were more probable an Armageddon than year 32 equating 443 BC with 2008 AD, placing Armageddon in 1997 and 2009 (the most ominous events of the year presumed split for Yom Kippur then Passover. Only Yom Kippur 2009 now remains to fulfill both events.)
2011 - Harold Camping's revised prediction has May 21, 2011 as the date of the rapture.[39]
2060 - Sir Isaac Newton proposed, based upon his calculations using figures from the book of Daniel, that the Apocalypse could happen no earlier than 2060.[40][41]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

(It looks like the predictions for 2009 and earlier were a bit off the mark!

To be honest, I was surprised that people believed this - but less surprised that many Americans did.

Perhaps eh can shed some light on this - he seems to hold a number of quaint beliefs and presents himself as a Biblical expert. I presume that he believes in rapture - because the Bible says so?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique
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Nov 01, 2009
There are conspiracy theories about rapture and right wing christian neocons in america and how bush's interest is linked to the middle east.

George bush was alledged to have said god told him to go to the middle east to sort out iraq, alqueda etc.

Shafique - have your heard about PNAC? (Project for the new american century) senior republican party members were linked to this group.
Roadtester
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Nov 01, 2009
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Rapture

Shafique, I never knew you were a video game fan boi.
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Nov 02, 2009
I think the jehovas witness's are a kind of rapture type cult, they do have a fair number of followers, they keep putting the apocalypse back. Suppposadly so many will be wisked off to heaven the rest will stay on earth. Though I dont know if you can 'upgrade' so you get on the spaceship to heaven?
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Nov 02, 2009
Roadtester - yes I have heard about the PNAC, and its amazing how many of the authors made it to positions of power and how much of what they wrote about Bush et al implemented.

Neo-cons get a bad rap these days - but ultimately it looks like they got their way and thus far Obama hasn't done much to turn their 'achievements' around. But let's give him time.

As for Rapture and other 'interesting' beliefs - it shows that 'eh' isn't the only one that can draw fantastical conclusions and beliefs from the Bible!

Interestingly, he hasn't denied/confirmed that he believes in this either. Perhaps he's already on the 'mother ship'???? :)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 02, 2009
The mother ship is invisible and, of course, it levitates. It was actually supposed to be used to descend Ghulam down to the mosque he constructed in his home (the mosque he built to resemble the one in Syria) but apparently Ghulam just said he descended from that mosque and some actually took his word for it.

Too bad for Ghulam though. It would appear that his own family thought of him as a con-artist and his wiser followers accused him of embezzlement.
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Nov 02, 2009
But - it appears you still have an internet connection in the mother ship.

Is this 'Ghulam' a fellow believer in Rapture of yours?

:lol:

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 02, 2009
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? Possibly.... He did convince some lost souls that he was Mary and pregnant with Jesus.
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Nov 03, 2009
Ah, I get it - your belief in rapture makes as much sense as a guy claiming to be Mary and becoming pregnant and giving birth to himself.

I'd have to agree - Rapture appears to me to be a wierd belief, and yet those who hold it base it on the Bible.

I look forward to your explanation of why you agree (or perhaps disagree?) with the belief in Rapture.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 08, 2009
Yes, I agree. Mirza Ahmad - a false prophet, conman, was a bit of weirdo.

Good point.
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Nov 08, 2009
So you denounce those who believe in Rapture just because it is in the Bible?

Fair enough - we both choose which parts of the Bible to believe and which parts to dismiss.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 06, 2009
Well, given that eh-oh appears to have some time on his hands, I thought I'd remind him of this unanswered question.

So c'mon - are you one of these 'Rapture' believers or not? Or are you embarrassed to answer?


Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 06, 2009
Oh yeah, the shafique from yahoo forums is definitely the same shafique who posts here:

> Shafique Wrote:
> Thank you for confirming that Dr Rashid was wrong when he
> stated that the eclipse of 6th April 1894 was NOT in Ramadhan.


I would appreciate, if in the future, you would adhere to stating
the facts and not interpreting them to support your case - that
would be a more honest venue, which avoids needless exchanges.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qadianism/message/659
event horizon
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Re: Rapture Dec 06, 2009
Mr. Shafique, I am really surprised that you have once more repeated
this unproven and unsupported claim, which we have already seen to be
without any merit. I have already provided six lengthy replies, while
you have not supplied any supported reply. Please note that, while
this strategy may be a good way to waste time, it is quite
unproductive and against our stated policy.


Unfortunately, you have not considered any of the facts and arguments
provided by us
. An honest, rational, and productive discussion
demands that both sides pay close attention to what is said and
provide proof in support of their position. It is easy, Mr. Shafique,
to simply state things, while ignoring the counter arguments and all
the evidence provided. However, those who resort to such strategies
are only being dishonest with themselves and are not considerate of
others on the forum.


Please keep this in mind and revisit our prior postings carefully.
In addition, kindly avoid attributing things to others which are
clearly against what they have stated.
Such postings will be seen
as obvious attempts to waste time and will be rejected.
I hope
you agree that a believer is supposed to produce evidence and show
respect for the truth and honest communication.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qadianism/message/667

Yup - definitely the same dude.
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Re: Rapture Dec 07, 2009
Are you avoiding the question, perchance?

I'm struggling to make the question simpler. Hmm, let's see - let me try fewer words:

Believe in Rapture?

(Answer: Yes or No)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 09, 2009
bump for eh.
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Re: Rapture Dec 09, 2009
So c'mon - are you one of these 'Rapture' believers or not? Or are you embarrassed to answer?

Shafique he probably believes in second coming of prophet jesus like it is described and put in correct terms in islam...But I guess he is to embarrassed, or let say tooo suttuborn to admit it...
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Re: Rapture Dec 09, 2009
Berrin wrote:
So c'mon - are you one of these 'Rapture' believers or not? Or are you embarrassed to answer?

Shafique he probably believes in second coming of prophet jesus like it is described and put in correct terms in islam...But I guess he is to embarrassed, or let say tooo suttuborn to admit it...


Shafique doesn't believe Jesus will return. Ahmad Ghulam is the Messiah and Mahdi.

But Berrin, could you please explain the Muslim view of Qadianism?

I've asked shafique, but he's re-reading the Ahmadi site he copy/pastes from so he can form an opinion.
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Re: Rapture Dec 10, 2009
Nice try at deflection - but this thread is about Rapture.

Sure, I believe that those who believe in Rapture (i.e. that they will disappear just before Jesus descends) base this belief on the Bible. Yes, as a Muslim, I don't believe that people will just disappear - vanish into thin air - unless it is in a David Copperfield special (well, come to think of it - he's Jewish and mysterious.... hmm - nah - he's just an illusionist! ;) )

The question was though - are you one of these people who share the belief in rapture?

Simple enough question.

Why the evasion?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 10, 2009
You see being a christian makes it all too hard to decide on the number of Gods available, while being a jew makes all the matters even worse and complicated!.. So i sympatize with him that he can't make up his mind...
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Re: Rapture Dec 11, 2009
Berrin wrote:You see being a christian makes it all too hard to decide on the number of Gods available, while being a jew makes all the matters even worse and complicated!.. So i sympatize with him that he can't make up his mind...


Berrin, thank you for your post, but could you please provide some insight as to what Muslims think of Qadianism and its founder, Mirza Ghulam?
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Re: Rapture Dec 11, 2009
:lol:

Isn't it funny how eh is trying desperately to change the subject and divert attention away from the subject of this thread?

It appears he can't bring himself to answer the question about a belief that Christians have that is based on the Bible - I understand his dilemma. If he says he doesn't believe that he'll disappear before Jesus returns - he's afraid we'll criticise him for having a 'whacky' belief - and if he says he doesn't believe in it, he'll be disagreeing with the Christians who do passionately believe they are the 'chosen people' who will vanish from earth one day leaving the rest of us who are 'not worthy' to witness the return of Jesus.

Berrin - you obviously are a person who eh-oh respects and values their opinion - so perhaps you can give him your opinion on Rapture?? :mrgreen:

Do you believe that eh-oh will disappear in a puff of smoke? ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 11, 2009
Yes - it's unfortunate when some aren't honest enough to admit they are really adherents to a certain religion.

philosophy-dubai/was-jesus-crucified-anwer-yes-t39813.html

Let alone acknowledge posts they wrote on a different forum.

So, how many Muslims did you convert to Qadianism? 1? 2?

I do not have much time to devote to this forum as I am doing a lot of work
inviting people to the true Islam of the Prophet Muhammad, the Khatamal
Anbiya - Ahmadiyat in Islam.


shafique is busy converting people to 'true' Islam
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Re: Rapture Dec 11, 2009
:mrgreen:

I'm actually half-wishing Rapture was true - at least then there's a chance you'd vanish! :mrgreen:

Ah, but seriously - why are you reluctant to tell us whether you believe in Rapture or not, and why are you not asking questions about Ghulam Ahmad etc in the other threads you started on the subject?

Do you not think everyone can see through your attempts at changing the subject? (Not least because of the title of this thread?)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 13, 2009
shafique wrote: why are you reluctant to tell us whether you believe in Rapture or not?



This is a serious question - why the silence? I know many Christians who don't subscribe to this belief - and thus far only know of Americans who believe in this, so the continuing silence is intriguing.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 13, 2009
eh - I presume you must have missed the question above.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Dec 14, 2009
leaving the rest of us who are 'not worthy' to witness the return of Jesus.


That’s exactly why I asked him to verify how many Gods there are available to control us.
Maybe a god for jews, god for christians, god for muslims…I guess each will take his turn for rapture!

I wasn’t into this thing but you made me curious so i read some about it laughing all the way through. It seems as if the rapture is an end-times event more like what we muslims understand to happen at the last hour of the day of judgement…
Signs of the last hour in islam….http://islamworld.net/resources/cache/234

What’s so funny is that once the believers of christianity dissapear and taken into the heaven by God, then the same god will send them back to the earth with jesus again? Why is that? I mean since all the believers are up on the heavens already, God has no excuse to send them back again, does he? Aren’t the christian believers lucky in a sense that they are certified residents of the heavens without judgement on the judgement day. I can see now why some christians think that they are better off being christian.

Do you believe that eh-oh will disappear in a puff of smoke?

:lol: well may be…someone must have told them from the future in islam and promised them the mir’aj, now that would make them not only ordinary believers but every single one of them a prophet! ….. aren't I clever? :wink:I wonder if EH believes in Mi’raj?…

Some Biblical References to the Rapture:
Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhel ... ture_2.htm

Similar lines in the quran:
“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God,’ - but they did not kill him and nor did they crucify him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. Surely, they did not kill him. But God raised him (Jesus) up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And God is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.” (Quran 4:157-159)

The words, “And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death,” refer to Jesus’ worldly death after he returns to earth. At that time, the Jews and Christians will finally believe in him as a Messenger of God and a human being only, as that will be the only option possible at that time. In fact, some scholars state that part of the wisdom in Jesus’ return is the final and undeniable refutation of the Jews’ claim that they had crucified him and to bring an end to the false claim that he was the Son of God.

Among the major signs mentioned by the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, is that of “the smoke.” God refers to this event in the Quran, saying:
“Then wait you for the Day when the sky will bring forth a visible smoke, covering the people, this will be a painful torment” (Quran 44:10-11)

Nearing the end of time, the trumpet will be blown and creation will cease to exist. God, Almighty, says:
“And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom God wills.” (Quran 39:68)
It will be blown a second blowing, and all creation from the beginning of time till the end of time will be resurrected. God, the Exalted, tells us:
“And the Trumpet will be blown (i.e. the second blowing) and behold! From the graves they will come out quickly to their Lord.” (Quran 36:51)
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/613/viewall/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1177/viewall/
http://islamworld.net/docs/hour/index.html


To me islam gives more extensive, distinctive and explicit statements than this rapture thing in christianity..
Maybe now EH will tell us what he thinks?
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Re: Rapture Dec 14, 2009
Berrin wrote:
leaving the rest of us who are 'not worthy' to witness the return of Jesus.


That’s exactly why I asked him to verify how many Gods there are available to control us.
Maybe a god for jews, god for christians, god for muslims…I guess each will take his turn for rapture!

....

What’s so funny is that once the believers of christianity dissapear and taken into the heaven by God, then the same god will send them back to the earth with jesus again? Why is that? I mean since all the believers are up on the heavens already, God has no excuse to send them back again, does he?...

Maybe now EH will tell us what he thinks?


Well, to be fair, many Christians don't believe in this - and from what I gather it is mostly people in the US that subscribe to this belief. To other Christians, they would share our smiles on the subject.

Let's see where eh is on the subject.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Jan 24, 2010
I'm hoping that eh will also come out and share his views on Rapture with us - whether he's with us who think it's a kooky belief, or whether he's with those who believe this will happen.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Rapture Jan 26, 2010
I agree with you that the belief in Jinn is kooky.
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