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What did I say about copy/pastes and not understanding the question?

It is funny to see you paste a quote about the root 'aslama' and ignore the fact that this also has a meaning 'peace' - and is referenced in the first post above!!

As I said, you have to rely on pastes and your quaint interpretations - I'll just wait for you to produce someone in authority that agrees with your view/interpretation that Aslama does not also mean peace.

Let me know if the question is too hard - but I'm surprised you did not read the first post and notice that it contains the word 'peace' in the definition. It wasn't, after all, that long a post!

Cheers,
Shafique

It is funny to see you paste a quote about the root 'aslama' and ignore the fact that this also has a meaning 'peace' - and is referenced in the first post above!!

Unfortunately, the issue of contention isn't over the meaning of the root word of Islam, but the word Islam itself.

As I said, I don't feel like proving a negative.

You made the claim that Islam, not its root word, has a secondary meaning of peace.

I've said that Islam and peace are two separate words. Other than claim that this view is discredited, you haven't actually shown otherwise.

but I'm surprised you did not read the first post and notice that it contains the word 'peace' in the definition. It wasn't, after all, that long a post!

Please don't set up anymore straw-men. The post in the OP discussed the root word of Islam. It never claimed that Islam can also mean peace.

But perhaps you can show where the article (not written by an expert as far as I can tell, btw) does indeed claim what you have said yourself?

I think the penny is starting to drop.

Yes, a secondary meaning of Islam is peace - hence why the author of the article on Islam and Terrorism was correct in stating that 'Islam means the religion of peace' and why you cannot find an expert who agrees with your contention that this is incorrect.

This is a common misconception found on many anti-Islam web sites - that Islam does not also mean peace.

It is fascinating that in your last post you pasted the meaning of 'aslama' in support of your view (because the site you chose missed out the meaning 'peace') and yet forgot to read the first post of this thread which has the fuller definition.

Do we agree that Aslama also means 'entered into peace' and that Islam derives from this verb?

I could re-state that your views rely on deliberate misinterpretations and selective quotes, but I won't

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, a secondary meaning of Islam is peace

Great, now you only need to cite some credible sources in support of your view.

event horizon wrote:

Yes, a secondary meaning of Islam is peace

Great, now you only need to cite some credible sources in support of your view.

See, I knew you don't actually read what is posted!

Let me connect the dots for you - Islam's meaning derives from the root s-l-m and the verb 'aslama' (you yourself quoted a reference saying this).

The meaning of 'aslama' is primarily 'he submitted' but, as per all Arabic dictionaries (the 'credible source' you are asking for) 'aslama' also means 'he entered into peace' - and this is shown in the FIRST post of this thread.

Islam therefore primarliy means 'way of life of a person who chooses to submit to the will of God' and secondary meaning is 'way of life of a person who chooses to submit to the Will of God to find internal and external peace'.

You really can't have your cake and eat it - if you derive the primary meaning of Islam from the verb 'Aslama' then you cannot ignore the meanings of the verb 'Aslama'.

Here endeth the lesson.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for sharing your views. Very fascinating, but can you quote a credible source?

I'll go ahead and quote from someone who actually does know what they are talking about:

The both come from the same root SLM.
Submission is pronounced Islaam
Peace is pronounced Salaam.

The difference is not just in diacritics and vowels. They are different words. The diacritics/vowels would differ between words due to differences in tenses or agent/object etc.
To give you an example, take Islaam (submission) itself as an example.
Islaam: The act of submitting
Istislaam: The act of surrendering
Muslim: Submitter
Mustaslim: Surrenderer
Aslam: Surrendered
Yastaslim: to surrrender in the continious tense.
All the above come from the same word (Islaam) here changes in diacritics/vowels are relevant. But Silm (peace) is another word altogether and changes in diacritics/vowles will be within ITS definition and not cause it to overlap with another word.

This may have confused you even more. Many words come from the same stem or root. This means at some point in time words of 'similar' or 'implied' meanings developed from that root. But it doesn't always mean that these words overlap in meaning. Some do some don't.

Again with the selective quotes!

Aslama also means 'he enters into peace' as well as 'he surrendered' - and as you yourself quoted, Islam derives from Aslama - QED.

Quoting abridged definitions which only give the primary meaning doesn't really help your argument.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please re-read the quote that was provided to you that explains that Islam means submission and that peace and Islam are two separate words.

I see that you are also having difficulty finding sources to support your claim that Islam also means peace. Are you having difficulty finding anything on google? Just let me know and I can ask another Arabic speaker for you.

I re-read your post where you stated Islam is derived from the verb Aslama which is itself derived from the root s-l-m.

Your quote says Aslama means 'he submitted', and hence Islam means 'submission'. The fuller definition of Aslama includes 'he entered into peace' and hence Islam also means 'religion of peace'.

Please try and keep up with your own arguments. It is not really my fault that you chose to ignore the full meaning of 'Aslama'.

Cheers,
Shafique

I re-read your post where you stated Islam is derived from the verb Aslama which is itself derived from the root s-l-m.

You mean the wikipedia quote as opposed to the one I had just posted?

The fuller definition of Aslama includes 'he entered into peace' and hence Islam also means 'religion of peace'.

Do you read Arabic? If not, then where did you read this statement from? I assume it's from Wikipedia, but maybe you'll surprise me or something.

Or something.

Yes I read Arabic. Do you?

As I said, you can easily look up the meaning of Aslama in a dictionary and confirm your own quote that Islam derives from this verb (in grammatical terms it is the active participle of the verb).

It should be relatively straightforward to show that Aslama does not also mean 'enter into peace' - by quoting a full definition from an Arabic (or even Arabic/English) dictionary.

So, do we have another example you posting something that you haven't read or agree with, or are you actually going to try and get to the truth and show that 'Aslama' does not also mean 'enter into peace' and hence the active participle, Islam, also means 'religion of peace'. Or is it going to be another 'all mouth, no trousers' moment and an insistence that the Orientalists are right?

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, you can easily look up the meaning of Aslama in a dictionary and confirm your own quote that Islam derives from this verb (in grammatical terms it is the active participle of the verb).

Cool, what didn't you understand from this quote?

This may have confused you even more. Many words come from the same stem or root. This means at some point in time words of 'similar' or 'implied' meanings developed from that root. But it doesn't always mean that these words overlap in meaning. Some do some don't.

It should be relatively straightforward to show that Aslama does not also mean 'enter into peace' - by quoting a full definition from an Arabic (or even Arabic/English) dictionary.

Quoting the meaning of Islam from an Arabic dictionary/lexicon should be even easier, right?

Let me know how that is coming along for you - since it was your claim that Islam means peace and I won't prove a negative.

You really should try and keep up.

It is not that difficult.

Aslama is the verb from which the word Islam derives from. You stated this in a previous post.

The full meaning of Aslama has been posted above. You have been invited to check in any lexicon or dictionary to confirm the fact Aslama also means 'entered into peace'. I see just evasion on your part.

Ergo, once again your Orientalist views have been shown to rely on selective quotations and the wilful ignoring of evidence when posted.

Cheers,
Shafique

Aslama is the verb from which the word Islam derives from. You stated this in a previous post.

That's nice, but the issue is over the meaning of Islam, not Aslama.

Since you keep bringing up dictionaries and lexicons, why haven't you checked one for yourself concerning the meaning of *Islam*?

Great, we've finally established that a meaning of Islam is peace. I agree it secondary to the primary meaning of submitting to the will of God (and God is peace, as we all know - unless you are one of these wierd Bible bashers who take the Bible literally).

Is good health also a secondary meaning of Islam?

Event horizon, It's more complicated than a one word meaning, but certanly it does not mean pure "peace", the first meaning of it is "Obey", you can interpret it as "entry in a world of health and peace" which is the result of "obey"

Following your logic, if you are to ignore where Melika clearly wrote that Islam does *not* mean peace, but obey, and the consequences of obeying can mean good health and peace, then Islam also means good health, right?

Let me know if you are having trouble finding where Melika uses the word health beside peace. I know how excited you get if you believe someone supports what you believe. Similar to reading a few pages from a book and believing you have the answers to pretty much everything you could possibly pontificate on.

Islam is the active participle of the verb 'aslama' and their meanings all derive from the root s-l-m.

In all the quotes you've given, the meaning of Islam is shown to be that of 'Aslama' (the verb) - and in any case is a short-cut to the full meaning which is 'way of life chosen by those who submit to the will of God to find peace' - 'way of life' (i.e. religion) is implied and understood, as is 'will of God'.

However, the 'submit' and 'peace' are integral in the meaning of 'Aslama'.

You are happy that 'religion' is an implicit meaning. You have separately acknowledged that aslama does indeed have a meaning of 'entering into peace' and Melika has confirmed that Islam does include this meaning.

You even thanked Melika for the clarification.

(Melika is using the word 'health' in the sense of 'security' - which is the more literal word used in the definitions given - 'peace and security' rather than 'peace and medical well-being' - Melika please correct if I'm mistaken)

Cheers,
Shafique

However, the 'submit' and 'peace' are integral in the meaning of 'Aslama'.

Once again, the word in question is not Aslama, but Islam. Are you having difficulty with this?

Your post in question was claiming that Islam had a secondary meaning of peace. Not a possibility of what happens when believers submit to allah.

We're talking of nouns here, not near futures and conditionals.

(Melika is using the word 'health' in the sense of 'security' - which is the more literal word used in the definitions given - 'peace and security' rather than 'peace and medical well-being' - Melika please correct if I'm mistaken)

Great. You should edit your OP and add that Aslama/Islam also means security/good health.

Aslama is the verb, Islam is the active participle - both have the same meanings (except one for labelling 'doing things' - i.e. is the verb and the other is for describing the doer of the action)

Sheesh.

As Melika has confirmed to you, Islam indeed means 'peace'. She has used 'health', when I think she should have used 'security' (again what the dictionary states).

And yes, let me state again, 'peace' is not the primary meaning - which is 'submission to the will of God'.

I know you are not long out of school (or probably still at school) - but I hope that your teachers didn't have this much trouble getting you to understand concepts.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
(Melika is using the word 'health' in the sense of 'security' - which is the more literal word used in the definitions given - 'peace and security' rather than 'peace and medical well-being' - Melika please correct if I'm mistaken)

no shafique, It is health, not security. health as medical well being, it can interpreted as mind well being too,as feeling secure. Arabic is more complicated that you can translate the words directly like this. For sure the first and most common meaning of "Islam" is "obey". and it is a noun, as "act of obeying", I dont know the exact english word for it.

Thanks Melika for clarifying - I hadn't seen 'health' as a meaning of 'aslama', but had seen 'security' - hence why I asked.

It is interesting to know that this is also another secondary meaning - so 'Islam is a peaceful and healthy religion' is a valid statement. I agree that the primary meaning is submission to God.

FYI here is a definition I posted earlier:

Aslama
Aslama (Ar. for: surrender; submission; obey; sincerity; peaceful attitude toward life) The word "aslama" derives from the three letter root in Arabic; s, l, m (pronounced - seen, laam, meem).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aslama forms the basis for the noun "ISLAM" and implies the meaning of being in a state of surrender, submission, obedience, sincerity and peace. The implication is the existence of two entities; one is the master and the other the slave or servant. This best describes the servitude of those who truly believe in the One God of the semitic language, "Allah" and indicates the choice of being in a state of aslama to Him.

Cheers,
Shafique

so 'Islam is a peaceful and healthy religion' is a valid statement.

No it's not. Your name is Shafique, It means friendly and sympathetic, but does this assure that you are a friendly and sympathetic person? no!

The "Obedience" does not mean that Islam is a peaceful and healthy religion.

I think you are mistaking two different issues.

This thread is about the meaning of the word Islam. As you say, the meaning of my name 'Shafique' is indeed 'friendly and sympathetic'. Whether I live up to the meaning does not change the fact that the meaning of Shafique is 'friendly etc'.

The whole discussion started with eh disputing the opening line of the article in the thread 'Islam and Terrorism' - which said 'Islam means religion of peace.'

It appears we all now agree that the primary meaning of the word Islam is 'Submission to the will of god' and that the word also has secondary meanings of peace and security (and good health).

Now, whether the religion lives up to the meaning of the word Islam is a separate discussion - and is indeed the subject of the article referenced above (Islam and Terrorism).

I concede that for eh and perhaps you, Islam is a religion that does not live up to the meaning of the word. For me, it does and the Muslims who commit evil acts are doing it in-spite of the teachings of Islam, rather than because of it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Now, whether the religion lives up to the meaning of the word Islam is a separate discussion

Sure, that s what I agree with you, so:

so 'Islam is a peaceful and healthy religion' is a valid statement.

this is not the conclusion of this discussion.

Right?

Nope - no need for this to be the end of the discussion -as I said, whether Islam's teachings live up to the meaning of the word is the intention of the other thread 'Islam and Terrorism'.

There it explains what Islam's teachings are about causing harm to others etc.

I guess, to be more correct, I should have said 'Islam also means a religion of peace and health'. This is a factual statement about the meaning of the word.

My statement above that 'Islam is a peaceful and healthy religion' is more subjective and is what I believe and have shown to be the case by citing what God says in the Quran and what the Prophet, pbuh, taught and did.

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting, so Islam now means good health or the religion of good health based on shafique's, uhm, understanding of what Melika said.

Shafique, you should write to different Muslim websites and tell them that Islam suddenly has a new meaning. Not only does it mean peace (even though Melika was clear that it doesn't), it also means good health.

See all my previous comments that your Orientalist views rely on selective quotes and ignoring evidence when presented.

It is now clear that the meaning of the word Islam does include 'religion of peace' and even 'religion of peace and health' - but with the primary meaning of 'submission to the will of God'.

I've invited you to present evidence from any scholar or Arabic speaker that agrees with you that it does not include the meaning of 'peace' and you've failed spectacularly when Melika confirmed your worst fears (and she doesn't present herself as an Islamic scholar)

Cheers,
Shafique

I've invited you to present evidence from any scholar or Arabic speaker that agrees with you that it does not include the meaning of 'peace' and you've failed spectacularly when Melika confirmed your worst fears (and she doesn't present herself as an Islamic scholar)

I already have. The Arabic speaker was clear that Peace and Islam are two separate words. Islam means to submit.

It is now clear that the meaning of the word Islam does include 'religion of peace' and even 'religion of peace and health'

Are you having trouble with Melika's quote, shafique? Or is this another example of taking someone said out of context and inserting your own beliefs?

Event horizon, It's more complicated than a one word meaning, but certanly it does not mean pure "peace", the first meaning of it is "Obey", you can interpret it as "entry in a world of health and peace" which is the result of "obey"

A Muslim might interpret the consequences of what happens when one obeys, but that is *far* off from saying that Islam has a secondary meaning of peace. It would be akin to saying that Islam means war because some (many) Muslims might interpret submission to God and his commands as waging war against unbelievers (Koran 9:29). You apparently have a difficult time with plain English explanations and want to believe what you say no matter what.

We've established that the word Islam does indeed also mean 'peace' in addition to the primary meaning of submission to the will of God.

Perhaps you may not believe that God equals peace (if you believe the Bible literally, you may have just cause to doubt this - but I'd emphasise Jesus' words on the subject).

Until and unless you can produce one expert that agrees with your wild assertion that Islam does not also mean 'religion of peace', I'm afraid all you are doing is blowing hot air.

Cheers,
Shafique

Until and unless you can produce one expert that agrees with your wild assertion that Islam does not also mean 'religion of peace', I'm afraid all you are doing is blowing hot air.

I already have quoted an expert clarifying the meaning of the word Islam. Please try and keep up. I've also quoted an Arabic speaking Muslim who was quite clear that Islam and peace are two separate words.

Additionally, you have seemed to have misunderstood Melika's post when she clearly wrote that Islam does not mean peace. Rather, submitting to allah can be interpreted as being in a world of good health and peace. Just as some Muslims believe that submitting to Allah's commands can be interpreted as waging warfare against unbelievers.

Neither understanding changes the meaning of the actual word Islam.

Let me know when you can produce one expert that agrees with *your* wild assertion that Islam means peace or 'religion of peace' instead of rambling on about the meaning of Aslama.