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I've taken the liberty of pasting an excerpt from a book about Islam which explains the subject better than I can. I've edited it slightly to remove some references.

I think it sheds light on the question posed in another thread about life after death, at least from an Islamic perspective.


LIFE AFTER DEATH

The question of life after death has always agitated the minds of people belonging to all religions and all ages alike. There is also the atheistic view which totally denies the possibility of life after death. The religions which believe in life after death can be divided into two categories.

1. Those which believe in the reincarnation of the soul of a dead person into a new human or animal form of existence.

2. Those which believe in an otherworldly state of existence after death.

The atheistic view is outside the domain of this discussion. As far as Islamic doctrine is concerned, Islam belongs to that category of religions which totally rejects all possibilities of reincarnation in any form. But those who believe in some otherworldly form of spiritual or carnal existence are divided among themselves on so many planes. Within each religion the understanding differs. Hence, with reference to the views held by the followers of various religions, no belief can be attributed to them without fear of contradiction.

In Islam itself there are different views held by different sects or Muslim scholars. The general understanding tends to perceive the otherworldly form as very similar to the carnal one here on earth. The concept of heaven and hell consequently present a material image rather than a spiritual image of things to be. Heaven is presented, according to their concept, as an immeasurably large garden literally abounding in beautiful trees casting eternal shadows under which rivers will flow. The rivers would be of milk and honey. The garden will be fruit bearing and all man may desire of fruits would be his at his command. The meat would be that of birds of all sorts; it is only for one to wish which meat he particularly craves. Female companions of exceeding beauty and refinement would be provided to the pious men, with no limit imposed on the number, which will be decided according to their capacity. As many as they can cope with will be theirs. What would they do? How would they relate with each other? Will they bear children or lead a barren life of enjoyment? These are all the moot questions. The enjoyment, as it is conceived, is intensely sensual. No work to be performed, no labour to be wasted, no effort to be made. A perfect life (if such life can be called perfect) of complete and total indolence, with the option of overeating and over-drinking, because also wine will be flowing close to the rivers of milk and honey. No fear of dyspepsia or intoxication! Reclining on heavenly cushions of silk and brocade, they will while their time away in eternal bliss -- but what an eternal bliss!

In Islam, there are others who categorically reject this naive understanding of the Quranic references to heaven, and prove with many a reference to verses of the Holy Quran that what it describes is just metaphorical imagery which has no carnality about it. In fact the Holy Quran makes it amply clear that the form of existence of the life to come will be so different from all known forms of life here on earth, that it is beyond human imagination even to have the slightest glimpse of the otherworldly realities.

We will raise you into a form of which you have not the slightest knowledge. Surah Al-Waqiah (Ch. 56: V.61)


The life in the hereafter will not be material. Instead, it would be of a spiritual nature of which we can only visualise certain aspects. We cannot determine precisely how things will take shape. One of the salient features of his vision of the hereafter concerns the soul giving birth to another rarer entity, which would occupy the same position in relation to the soul as the soul occupies in relation to our carnal existence here on earth. This birth of a soul from within the soul will be related to the sort of life that we have lived here on earth. If our lives here are spent in submission to the will of God and in accordance with His commands, our tastes gradually become cultured and attuned to enjoying spiritual pleasures as against carnal pleasures. Within the soul a sort of embryonic soul begins to take shape. New faculties are born and new tastes are acquired, in which those accustomed to carnal pleasures find no enjoyment. These new types of refined human beings can find the content of their heart. Sacrifice instead of the usurpation of others' rights becomes enjoyable. Forgiveness takes the upper hand of revenge, and love with no selfish motive is born like a second nature, replacing all relationships that have ulterior motives. Thus, one can say a new soul within the soul is in the offing.

All these projections regarding the development of the soul are inferences drawn from various verses of the Holy Quran, yet the exact nature of future events cannot be precisely determined. One can only say that something along these lines would take place, the details of which lie beyond the reach of human understanding. There are certain aspects of the new life which need to be discussed. The concept of hell and heaven in Islam is completely different from the normally held view. Hell and heaven are not two different places occupying separate time and space. According to the Holy Quran, the heaven covers the entire universe. 'Where would be hell then?' enquired some of the companions of the Holy Prophet. 'At the same place', was the answer, 'but you do not have the faculty to understand their coexistence.' That is to say in ordinary human terms, they may seem to occupy the same time-space, but in reality because they belong to different dimensions, so they will coexist without interfering and inter-relating with each other.

But what is the meaning of heavenly bliss, the tortures of the fire of hell?

If a man is almost dying of thirst, and is otherwise healthy, cool water can provide him such deeply satisfying pleasure as cannot be derived from the ordinary experience of drinking water, or even the most delicious drink of his choice. If a man is thirsty and hungry as well, and he needs an immediate source of energy, a chilled bunch of grapes can provide him with such deep satisfaction as is not experienced by the same in ordinary circumstances. But the pre-requisite for these pleasures is good health. Now visualise a very sick man, who is nauseating and trying to vomit whatever liquid is left in him, and is at the verge of death through dehydration. Offer him a glass of cool water, or a chilled bunch of grapes, then not to mention his accepting them, a mere glance of them would create a state of revulsion and absolute abhorrence in him.

In illustrations like these, it is clear that hell and heaven are only issues of relativity. A healthy soul which has acquired the taste for good things, when brought into close proximity of the objects of its choice, will draw even greater pleasure than before. All that a healthy spiritual man was craving was nearness to God and His attributes and to imitate divine virtues. In heaven, such a healthy soul would begin to see and conceive and feel the nearness of the attributes of God like never before. They would not remain merely spiritual values, but would acquire ethereal forms and shapes, which the newly born heavenly spirit would enjoy with the help of the erstwhile soul, which would function as the body. That again would be a matter of relativity. The converse will be true of hell, in the sense that an unhealthy soul would create an unhealthy body for the new soul of the hereafter. And the same factors which provide pleasure to the healthy soul would provide torture and deep suffering for this unhealthy entity.

When we refer to mind or soul in comparison to our carnal body, there is a vast difference in the nature of their existence, which is almost inconceivable. Every part of the body is alive and is throbbing with life, not only in material terms but also in awareness. Every particle of the human body is gifted with some sort of awareness. Scientists try to express that awareness in terms of electronic pulses, but that is a very crude way of describing the overall awareness of the conscious and subconscious mind and the immune system and other independent functions of the human body, which still lie far beyond our power of comprehension.

So what is that awareness? How can it be defined and explained -- that Ultimate 'I' in every living thing. Can we refer to it as ego in psychological terms? But never has a psychologist succeeded in defining the ego. It is that something which in religious terms is described as the soul. There is no way we can measure the distance between the soul and the carnal body. In terms of rarity, the soul even in our crudest perception, is so rare and ultra-refined that in no way can it be likened to the body that it occupies. Now try to conceive the scenario of the birth of a soul within the soul over a period of billions of years. At the end of a long day, we find a soul within a soul, which would have the same comparison in terms of rarity as a human soul here on earth has with the human body. Something similar to this will take place, and in relative terms, the future existence of life would also have two states combined into one entity. In relative terms, one state would be like body and the other like soul. In comparison to our bodies, our soul would appear like a body to the newly evolved essence of existence.

In short, each individual creates his own hell or his own heaven, and in accordance with his own state each heaven differs from the other person's heaven, and each hell differs from the other person's hell, though apparently they occupy the same space and time in otherworldly dimensions.

What happens to man's soul between the time of his carnal death and his resurrection on the Day of Judgement? The Holy Prophet (sa) is reported to have said that after our death windows will open up in the grave; for the pious people, windows open from heaven, and for the wicked people they open towards hell. However, if we were to open up a grave, we would not find any windows! So literal acceptance of these words will not convey the true meaning of this subject. It is impossible that the Holy Prophet (sa) should ever misinform us, hence here he had to be speaking metaphorically. Had it not been so, then every time we dig up a grave, we should find windows, either opening into hell, or letting in the fragrant and pleasant air of paradise. But we witness neither of these. So what do the Holy Prophet's words mean?

The grave is actually an intermediary phase of existence between this life and the life to come. Here, spiritual life will progress gradually through many stages until it reaches its ultimate destiny. Then by the Command of Allah, a trumpet will be blown, and the final spiritual form will come into being. In this interim period, different souls would pass through a semblance of heaven or hell before reaching their final stage of perfection, fit and ready to be raised into a completely transformed entity. The Quran illustrates this concept beautifully:

Your first creation and your second creation will be identical. Surah Luqman (Ch. 31: V.28)

Pondering over the birth of a child from a single cell, one finds the following Quranic statement:

See how God gives you various shapes in the womb. Surah Al-Imran (Ch. 3: V.6)

Now this subject is related to the subject of the two identical creations mentioned above. Take for example the case of such children as are congenitally ill. They do not suddenly contract illness at the time of delivery, rather they gradually develop into a state of morbidity which is progressive and which starts from the time of their early embryonic stage. Similarly, the soul of a person who is spiritually diseased, in that embryonic stage before its final resurrection on the Day of Judgement, will suffer through a semblance of hell and will remain uneasy in that period of the grave as does an unhealthy child in the womb of its mother. The ways of a healthy child are totally different, even his kicking is appreciated by the mother.

The question that now arises is: Will the soul also progress as does the child in the mother's womb, and will it pass through all these stages? The answer to this can be found in the very same verse of the Quran: 'Ma khalakakum wa ma basukum illa ka nafsin wahidin' -- your first creation and your second creation will be identical.

To understand the second creation, we need to understand the way a baby takes shape in a mother's womb. These forms apparently only take nine months to develop, while in reality the creation of life is spread over billions of years. Going back to the beginning of zoological life, the baby passes through almost all the stages of the evolution of life. From the beginning of the pregnancy, through to its culmination nine months later, the development of the child reflects all the stages of creation. In other words, all the phases of evolution are being repeated in those nine months, one after the other, and at such great speed that it is beyond our imagination. It keeps alive the stages of the system of evolution, and presents a picture of it.

The creation of life underwent a long period of development to reach the form that we witness in nine months. This sheds light on the fact that the period of our first creation was very long, and our second creation will also span a long period. By studying these nine months we can learn something of the billions of years of the history of life, and also about the evolution of souls in the next world. It is perhaps safe to infer that the time from the early origin of life to the ultimate creation of man, would perhaps be needed once again for the development of the soul after the death.

In support of this reasoning, the Quran categorically declares that when the souls are resurrected they will talk to one another, trying to determine how long they tarried on the earth. Some will say, 'We tarried for a day' while others will say 'for even less than a day.' Allah will then say: 'No even that is not correct.' In other words, Allah will say that 'You tarried on earth for much less than what you estimate.' In reality, the relationship of one life-span to a small part of the day is more or less the same ratio that the time of the soul's resurrection will have to its previous entire life. The further away something is, the smaller it appears. Our childhood seems like an experience of just a few seconds. The greater the distance of the stars, the smaller they appear. What Allah is trying to tell us is that we won't find ourselves being judged the very next day after we die. Instead, judgement will take place in such a distant future that our previous lives will seem like a matter of a few seconds to us, like a small point a long way away.

In short, man's resurrection is described as a transformation that he cannot envisage and an event that is as certain as his existence here on earth. All these subjects have been explained in detail in the Holy Quran.

jazak allah khair

Bump

'Where would be hell then?' enquired some of the companions of the Holy Prophet. 'At the same place', was the answer, 'but you do not have the faculty to understand their coexistence.'

Couldn't find which hadith this was to check its isnad, then I found, with great surprise, what website(s) popped up when I pasted the terms into a search engine.

Lo and behold, a Qadiani website or two appeared.

So, perhaps our loon resident mod could bother finding which hadith this reported saying comes from???

The Holy Prophet (sa) is reported to have said that after our death windows will open up in the grave; for the pious people, windows open from heaven, and for the wicked people they open towards hell. However, if we were to open up a grave, we would not find any windows! So literal acceptance of these words will not convey the true meaning of this subject. It is impossible that the Holy Prophet (sa) should ever misinform us, hence here he had to be speaking metaphorically.

Believe it or not, but I think the author is actually addressing a non-Muslim audience when he says a saying must be interpreted metaphorically because understanding it literally would mean the prophet of Islam was wrong.

These lines are ones a five year old would use. Is this seriously the best apologetic literature you could find?

That sounds like a fool proof argument to me, doesn't it to you?

Pondering over the birth of a child from a single cell, one finds the following Quranic statement:

See how God gives you various shapes in the womb. Surah Al-Imran (Ch. 3: V.6)

Aw, no. The passage doesn't say that.

Your first creation and your second creation will be identical. Surah Luqman (Ch. 31: V.28)

Frankly, I'd just believe the Koran where it clearly and on multiple occasions states that unbelievers will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.

Why not? And if we're looking for metaphors, then an elliptic passage of being created twice should be subject to greater interpretation than the clear passages in the Koran where the non-believer is burnt for an eternity.

Take for example the case of such children as are congenitally ill. They do not suddenly contract illness at the time of delivery, rather they gradually develop into a state of morbidity which is progressive and which starts from the time of their early embryonic stage.

Ok, the author is unfamiliar with genetic diseases.

Unfortunately, the article just ends there with out much else substance.

Now, as for what the Koran and Sahih Hadith clearly do say, I am pointing out that the Koran is quite clear in saying that unbelievers will be sent to the fires of hell for an eternal torture.

The concept of Hell in Islam is indeed a place of punishment for those who have wronged their souls - this includes Muslims and non-Muslims. The Quran also states that heaven is not exclusively for Muslims - but that it depends on God's judgement.

I know many Christians believe that the Bible when it talks about an 'eternal' or 'everlasting' punishment after death interpret this to mean not 'never ending' .

Fire and Brimstone is a Christian concept and comes from Revelations:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death (Revelation 21:8).

Indeed, this Christian author does argue that this fiery hell in Christianity is eternal:

Will Future Punishment be Endless?

At death the eternal state of each person is immutably fixed. The words “eternal,” “everlasting,” “for ever” and “for ever and ever” express endless duration. The New Testament use of these expressions denotes eternity.5 It is unreasonable to assume that there is an eternal Heaven but not an eternal Hell. Eternal punishment is as much a truth of God’s Word as is the eternal rewards for the righteous. Jesus said: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). The life of the righteous is everlasting, but so is the punishment of the wicked everlasting. The Bible says that salvation is eternal (Hebrews 5:9), life is eternal (John 6:54), redemption is eternal (Hebrews 9:12), and the inheritance of the saints is eternal (Hebrews 9:15). But it says also that the fire of Hell is eternal and everlasting (Matthew 18:8; Jude 7); the chains of Hell are everlasting (Jude 6); the blackness of darkness is for ever (Jude 13), and the torment is for ever and ever (Revelation 20:10). The punishment of the wicked and the life of the righteous are for equal duration, “for ever and ever.”

http://bible.org/seriespage/eternal-punishment-lost


Now, the Islamic belief that Hell is not eternal - but heaven is - is one that is mirrored in some Christian interpretations of the Biblical accounts of 'eternal' hell.

So, the question to young eh is - do you agree with the Christians who literally interpret the Bible as saying that Hell is eternal? If so, then how is that any different from your belief about what the Quran says?

If you choose to interpret the Bible's passages about an eternal punishment metaphorically - why would you then object to the non-metaphorical explanations given in the OP?

Cheers,
Shafique

Now, the Islamic belief that Hell is not eternal

You mentioned this is an Islamic belief - whose belief is it?

Which school of jurisprudence teaches that an unbeliever's residence in hell will only be temporary?

So, the question to young eh is

Nice attempt at evasion.

Where does the Koran say that hell for unbelievers is temporary?

And how do you deal with the contradictory passages in the Koran where hell is clearly described as being permanent?

Fire and Brimstone is a Christian concept and comes from Revelations:

Eternal tortures is an Islamic concept and Dante consulted the Koran and Islamic belief when he wrote about hell in the Inferno.

Now, where does the Koran say hell is only temporary for unbelievers and how do you reconcile these verses with the ones which clearly say that unbelievers will be punished for all of eternity?

So, do you believe that hell is eternal or not - given that the Bible quotes above?

If you do believe it is eternal - then why should your belief that Islam teaches this belief (which I don't believe Islam teaches) cause you any problems?

Are you trying to argue that you believe the Quran teaches that Hell is eternal because this is what you believe the Bible tells you hell will be like?

Cheers,
Shafique

You could have just said that the Koran does not present other alternatives to hell being an eternal abode for non-believers who are sent there.

So, are you embarrassed about your understanding of Hell - or do you just want to dispute that Islam teaches that Hell isn't eternal?

Why don't you tell us whether your interpretation of the Quranic concept of Hell is the same as your interpretation of the Biblical concept of Hell?

I'm pretty open about what I believe Islam teaches about Hell - are you embarrassed to tell us what you think Hell will be like according to the Bible?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
Fire and Brimstone is a Christian concept and comes from Revelations:

Not withstanding that a lot of Christains believe in hell as a place of punishment - many don't. The book of Revelations is full of all apparently metaphorical references which are not regarded as literal, perhaps the 'lake of fire' reference isn't taken literaly.

I was under the impression that the Quran was more clear with a number of descriptions of hell as a place of eternal punishment leaving little room for interpretation.

In my personal opinion, it seems contradictory that a loving merciful god would send people to a place of eternal punishment.

Thanks Blueshift - I understand your viewpoint, and I agree that an eternal hell as described literally in the Bible (and indeed as eh is arguing the Quran teaches) is indeed contradictory to a loving, merciful God.

I'm left wondering why event horizon is so reticent to tell us what his interpretations of the eternal punishment of hell described in the Bible.

It seems he is more interested in bashing Islam (even if it means setting up strawmen) rather than having an honest discussion.


What is clear from the Quran is that God's mercy does apply to all people:
..He said: "With My Punishment I visit whom I will; But My Mercy extendeth To all things.
7:156

Cheers,
Shafique

^ Why the need to take a passage out of context?

Said He, 'My chastisement -- I smite with it whom I will; and My mercy embraces all things, and I shall prescribe it for those who are godfearing and pay the alms, and those who indeed believe in Our signs,

ie., Allah is merciful to those who love him back. If Allah believes that unbelievers who are sent to hell will be taken out of hell, don't you think he would have clearly said it?

But that's pretty funny, outside of Revelation (which is a dream), no where can a I find a passage that condemns unbelievers to hell.

But I see shafique has already forgotten the interpretation of some that wicked souls will be annihilated rather than tormented forever and another interpretation that all of humanity will be saved.

Of course, most Christians simply believe that hell is a separation from God rather than an eternal torture pit - like what is described in the Koran.

event horizon wrote:Of course, most Christians simply believe that hell is a separation from God rather than an eternal torture pit - like what is described in the Koran.

Are you among these 'most' Christians?

Does this not mean that 'most' Christians interpret the Biblical passages of an eternal hell - fire and brimstone etc - metaphorically?

Have we not uncovered yet another case of you bashing Islam for the sake of bashing Islam - applying one rule for literal verses of eternal firey hell when they appear in the Bible and having another interpretation when reading the Quran?

But this is not surprising - your whole argument revolves around insisting your views of Islam are correct and that what you decide the Quran means is correct. Your hypocrisy has been exposed, because the Bible contains explicit verses talking about eternal firey pits of hell - and you now concede that 'most' Christians (again a wild, generalisation that is not backed up by evidence) do not take these verses literally.

Unfortunately for you, Bible.org disagrees with your assessment that the Bible teaches that Hell is not eternal. Perhaps you should write to them and say that in your opinion they are in the 'minority' of Christian thought - and they should stop taking the Bible so literally?

Let us know how you get on:

Will Future Punishment be Endless?

At death the eternal state of each person is immutably fixed. The words “eternal,” “everlasting,” “for ever” and “for ever and ever” express endless duration. The New Testament use of these expressions denotes eternity.5 It is unreasonable to assume that there is an eternal Heaven but not an eternal Hell. Eternal punishment is as much a truth of God’s Word as is the eternal rewards for the righteous. Jesus said: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). The life of the righteous is everlasting, but so is the punishment of the wicked everlasting. The Bible says that salvation is eternal (Hebrews 5:9), life is eternal (John 6:54), redemption is eternal (Hebrews 9:12), and the inheritance of the saints is eternal (Hebrews 9:15). But it says also that the fire of Hell is eternal and everlasting (Matthew 18:8; Jude 7); the chains of Hell are everlasting (Jude 6); the blackness of darkness is for ever (Jude 13), and the torment is for ever and ever (Revelation 20:10). The punishment of the wicked and the life of the righteous are for equal duration, “for ever and ever.”

http://bible.org/seriespage/eternal-punishment-lost


Cheers,
Shafique

'most' Christians (again a wild, generalisation that is not backed up by evidence) do not take these verses literally.

Ah, no. I said that most Christian denominations do believe that hell is eternal, but understand hell as a separation from God and the sinner - unlike the Koran's description of an eternal hell where the non-believers who are sent will be tortured in the most harshest of ways imaginable.

Other Christians are universalists or annihilationists - and they also base their beliefs on what the Bible says, but believe all will be saved or that the wicked souls will simply be destroyed rather than spend an eternity away from God's presence.

I'm pretty open about what I believe Islam teaches about Hell

But I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking what the Koran says and how you square away your un-Koranic belief with the Koran on an eternal hell for all non-believers who are sent there?

You've failed to show where the Koran says that hell is temporary, which Muslims believe in a temporary hell (you called your belief an Islamic belief) and why the clear verses in the Koran should be ignored.

eh - from now on I'm just going to post explanatory posts about Islamic teachings and will not engage you in debating what you think Islam teaches. You are free to present what you have been taught. I'm pretty certain that everyone is clear now that your agenda is not for a genuine dialogue, and that your whole view of Islam relies on selective quotes and fantastical interpretations.

Where you do raise genuine questions that may be of interest to others, I'll respond as politely as I can.

So - thanks for clarifying that "most Christian denominations do believe that hell is eternal".

The literal descriptions of hell being a fiery pit etc in the Bible are therefore being interpreted metaphorically by those same Christians that view this eternal punishment as 'merely' 'separation from God'. The punishment is eternal for those who are sent to hell.

(I'm not saying these Christian interpretations are wrong - just pointing out that a literal reading of the Bible states that hell is eternal and is pretty horrific - in a side by comparison of descriptions of Hell, the Biblical account is more horrific. But again only if taken literally).

As for what Islam teaches - the descriptions of Hell are a little less gruesome than those found in the Bible and if your interpretation is correct, the length of suffering of the inmates of hell is no shorter than those in 'Biblical' hell.

As, I said - the Islamic belief is that God is all Merciful and the Prophet, pbuh, taught that one day hell will be empty. Ergo - Hell is not infinite/eternal according to Islam - it would be incompatible with a just, merciful God to punish people for ever, and ever and ever.

Here are two refs which say Hell will be empty at some point in the future:

Hazrat Omar (ra) states: "Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it" (Tafsir Fath-ul-Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-e- Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum).

and...

"Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it" (Kanzul Ummal Vol. VII, page 245; Fatah-ul-Bayan fi Maqasid-ul-Quran by Siddiq ibn Hasan).

Also, bear in mind that the Quran does not say all non-believers go to hell or that all believers go to heaven. Each is judged individually.

I grant you one thing in favour of Christianity - it teaches that a belief in Jesus as literal Son of God and saviour for mankind (and acting accordingly) guarantees you heaven (salvation) and vice versa, not believing in Jesus guarantees you hell. (Please correct me if I've mis-representing Christian dogma). Muslims don't generally have this guarantee (martyrs killed in the way of religion are promised heaven, which is pretty much what all martyrs of all religions are promised).

Cheers,
Shafique

eh - from now on I'm just going to post explanatory posts about Islamic teachings and will not engage you in debating what you think Islam teaches

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I guess you're taking this stance after your arguments have been punked.

I'm pretty certain that everyone is clear now that your agenda is not for a genuine dialogue

Right back at you.

(I'm not saying these Christian interpretations are wrong - just pointing out that a literal reading of the Bible states that hell is eternal and is pretty horrific - in a side by comparison of descriptions of Hell, the Biblical account is more horrific. But again only if taken literally).

LoL.

Sure it is.

The New Testament is no where near as graphic in describing the tortures and punishments of hell as the Koran does. You must be out of your mind.

I think the loon blinded by his own beliefs would be you, quite frankly.

But I'm happy to address the descriptions of hell found in the Koran and compare them to the New Testament:

philosophy-dubai/what-awaits-non-muslims-the-hereafter-t43953.html

By any objective standard that I can think of, the Koran is far more graphic in describing the tortures of hell.

But of course, our resident loon disagrees.

As for what Islam teaches - the descriptions of Hell are a little less gruesome than those found in the Bible and if your interpretation is correct

Sure they are.

the length of suffering of the inmates of hell is no shorter than those in 'Biblical' hell.

Actually, the Bible passages that refer to wicked souls as being annihilated would show that hell could be of a shorter duration in the Bible than in the Koran.

As, I said - the Islamic belief is that God is all Merciful and the Prophet, pbuh, taught that one day hell will be empty. Ergo - Hell is not infinite/eternal according to Islam

So the passages of an eternal hell in the Koran should be ignored.

it would be incompatible with a just, merciful God to punish people for ever, and ever and ever.

Well, we know that our definition of a just and merciful Allah is different from Allah's own definition of justice and mercy - he is only merciful to those who love him back.

This was proven by what the Koran says.

Also, bear in mind that the Quran does not say all non-believers go to hell or that all believers go to heaven. Each is judged individually.

The Bible doesn't say that unbelievers will go to hell. That's better than the contradictory messages of the Koran. Perhaps you should start taking your own advice before dishing it out to others?

Hazrat Omar (ra) states: "Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it" (Tafsir Fath-ul-Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-e- Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum).

"Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it" (Kanzul Ummal Vol. VII, page 245; Fatah-ul-Bayan fi Maqasid-ul-Quran by Siddiq ibn Hasan).

I can only find these ahadith on Yahooanswers.com and on a Sunni forum where one poster cited them - probably the same post you lifted your Koranic verse as well....

Seems like they're not Sahih (which another Muslim member told me of the Qadiani argument against an eternal hell a while ago). As usual, the theologically bankrupt beliefs of Qadianis are exposed.

You're cherry-picking obscure passages, taking others out of their immediate context and applying your own beliefs onto Allah that Allah must believe this or that because it's incompatible with your modern conception of mercy and justice - despite that Allah's conception of mercy is defined for us in the Koran.

That type of reasoning doesn't fly and, of course, is always subject to change as our own meanings of mercy and justice change as we progress. Soon, Muslims could start arguing that Gay Marriage should be allowed because it would be unjust for consenting adults to not marry because of the s.ex they happened to have been born into - regardless of what the Koran says of homo relations.

I think I'll let Berrin or dee7o (if he's still around) finish off your heretical beliefs. I have a lot of views on Islam, but they are certainly higher than my views on Qadianism and Qadianis. At least Muslims don't as frequently develop a convenient amnesia to the texts and teachings of their religion to convert others to their hip and mainstream God and prophet (although they certainly do that too).

So, in summary - Christians believe in eternal hell but interpret the hell to be something less than the horrific Biblical descriptions of Hell.

Take a New Testament description already quoted:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(Revelation 21:8).

A lake of 'Fire and Brimstone' - pretty horrific and ties in with the other descriptions of hell elsewhere in the Bible.

And another NT reference from Mark:

9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In Luke, Jesus tells us to Fear God - for He will send us to hell:

12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Blueshift and I agree that an eternity of punishment is not compatible (to us at least) with a concept of a Merciful God.

I've shown in the original article and with a couple of other references, the basis for the Islamic belief that Hell (which is hardly a pleasant place) is not eternal.

eh is arguing that Islam teaches that hell is eternal (i.e. is the same as the Christian concept of Hell in terms of duration). I disagree with his interpretation.

Cheers,
Shafique

I've shown in the original article and with a couple of other references, the basis for the Islamic belief that Hell (which is hardly a pleasant place) is not eternal.

Whose Islamic belief is that?

What does the Koran say of the eternity of hell?

So, in summary - Christians believe in eternal hell but interpret the hell to be something less than the horrific Biblical descriptions of Hell.

So, in summary - our resident troll is ignoring my comments and distorting what I have actually said.

I think any literate poster can go back to what I said and see that the NT offers several interpretations and that there is hardly a consensus in Christianity.

I've shown in the original article and with a couple of other references

Yes, I'm asking for Koranic verses showing that hell is not eternal for nonbelievers and why the clear and multiple passages should be ignored.

I agree with eh - the readers of this thread can indeed go back and read all the references posted and make up their own minds.

For me, I believe the concept of an eternal hell to be one that is incompatible with a loving God. And the interpretation by some Christians that God will just annihilate some souls rather than let them suffer eternally in hell is hardly any better (in terms of mercy) - I mean, in Islam all souls get to heaven but these Christians believe that some sinners will just be rubbed out of existence. (Which is what atheists believe in any case!)

Bible says that hell is eternal, so the argument that some say souls will be annihilated sounds like a cop-out to me. But again, this is just another example of an interpretation of the Biblical descriptions of Hell.

What is interesting is that there are some Christians who agree with the Islamic concept that God's mercy will extend to all humanity. So - a point of agreement amongst some Christians and Islamic teaching on this point.

Also, interesting to note that the quote from Luke 12:5 - talks about fearing him who can throw us into Hell (i.e. Fearing God). This is no different from Quranic instructions to fear God - but a Christian who reads Luke 12.5 and has a concept of an eternal hell must therefore have a greater fear than a Muslim who believes in a merciful God.

Cheers,
Shafique

I understand that you hold religious beliefs contrary to the Koran - you are an Ahmadi - but I am trying to understand a) where does the Koran say that unbelievers who are sent to hell will not be sent there for all eternity, b) why should we ignore the clear, descriptive and numerous passages that unbelievers will be sent to hell for an eternity of punishment and c) which school of jurisprudence holds that non-Muslims sent to hell will not remain there for an eternity?

We can compare the graphic descriptions of the Koran's version of hell to the NT's and whether the NT is as descriptive of hell as the Koran is or if the NT clearly says that non-believers will be sent to hell as clearly as the Koran does on another thread.

You're really not trying to argue that Christianity says Hell is a nice place or that a lake of fire and brimstone is somehow less descriptive than the Quranic descriptions - are you?

At the end of the day, we disagree over whether Hell is eternal or not. Your view is that the Bible is correct and that hell is eternal (but some sinners will just be erased so their suffering will be shortened by a complete annihilation).

The Islamic concept of Hell is that it is not a pleasant place (duh!) - and that it will be inhabited by Muslims and non-Muslims whom God adjudges need to go to hell before being admitted to Heaven.

Christian dogma seems to me to be more harsh - all those who don't believe in Jesus go to hell. Hell is eternal. The only 'get out' is that if you've sinned enough (or perhaps not enough?) you get rubbed out of existence. It appears therefore that you believe that Hell is a one-way trip.

Islam on the other hand teaches that God is all Merciful and the Prophet taught that Hell would one day be empty. As you point out, some Christians share this view that God's mercy will touch all humanity, but you imply these Christians are in the minority.

You wish to interpret Quranic verses as stating there will be an eternal hell, when there are Christians who interpret Biblical verses as a non-eternal hell (i.e. along the Islamic lines).

Therefore, we have to choose between your interpretation and belief of Hell and the one I've detailed as the Islamic concept.

Cheers,
Shafique

that a lake of fire and brimstone is somehow less descriptive than the Quranic descriptions - are you?

Yes, a lake of fire (which is metaphorical description of hell) is less descriptive than this:

4:56: "Those who have disbelieved in Our signs - We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."

22:19-20: "These two opponents dispute [with each other] about their Lord. But those who disbelieve will have garments of fire cut out for them. Over their heads will be poured boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bellies as well as [their] skins."

14:49-50 "And you will see the sinners that Day bound together in chains and yokes - their garments of liquid pitch and their faces covered with fire."

23:103-4 "But those who scales [of good] are light, those are the ones who have lost their souls; [they will abide] in Hell eternally. The fire will burn, their faces, and they will [appear to] grin therein, their lips displaced."

21:39-40 "If only the unbelievers knew [about] when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor from their backs, and [that] they will not be helped. No, but it will come to them suddenly and confound them. And they will not be able to avert it, nor will they be given respite."

54"47-8 "Truly, the criminals are in error and madness. The Day they will be dragged through the Fire on their faces, [they will hear], 'Taste the touch of Hell'"

40:69 "Do you not see those who dispute concerning the signs of Allah - how they are turned away [from truth]? Those who reject the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers - soon they will know. When the yokes [will be] round their necks and the chains. They will be dragged in the boiling water. Then in the Fire they will be burned."

44.43-46 "Surely the tree of the Zaqqum, is the food of the sinful. Like dregs of oil; it shall boil in (their) bellies, like the boiling of hot water."

5:037 "They will desire to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it; for them awaits a lasting chastisement.:

43:74-75 Lo! the guilty are immortal in hell's torment. It is not relaxed for them, and they despair therein.

2:167 and those that followed say, 'O if only we might return again and disown them, as they have disowned us!' Even so God shall show them their works. O bitter regrets for them! Never shall they issue from the Fire.

35:36 As for the unbelievers, theirs shall be the fire of Gehenna; they shall neither be done with and die, nor shall its chastisement be lightened for them. Even so We recompense every ungrateful one.

I have to laugh, are you actually trying to argue the Koran is less descriptive of hell than the New Testament?

You're really out of your mind.

Your view is that the Bible is correct and that hell is eternal (but some sinners will just be erased so their suffering will be shortened by a complete annihilation).

Lie. I never gave my view, I offered three traditional and mainstream views of Christianity. All three are based on what the New Testament says.

Christian dogma seems to me to be more harsh

Why not compare it to Islamic dogma?

Which Muslims believe that unbelievers are only temporarily punished in hell?

Actually, Christian dogma (whatever that means) is far less sadistic than what Islam teaches since the New Testament compares hell to the absence of God's presence whereas the Koran's descriptions of hell are nothing more than depictions of mindless brutality and violence.

Islam on the other hand teaches that God is all Merciful and the Prophet taught that Hell would one day be empty.

Which Muslims believe this?

As you point out, some Christians share this view that God's mercy will touch all humanity, but you imply these Christians are in the minority.

They are much more numerous than the Muslims who share the same views.

You wish to interpret Quranic verses as stating there will be an eternal hell, when there are Christians who interpret Biblical verses as a non-eternal hell (i.e. along the Islamic lines).

Just let me know which school of jurisprudence holds that unbelievers sent to hell will eventually be sent to paradise.

Then we can compare this to what the various Christian denominations teach.

Repeating your arguments won't change the evidence or views already presented.

As I said, to me I see no difference between the Biblical descriptions of a lake of fire and brimstone, and eternal flames etc with those of the Quran. Both portray a very unpleasant state of affairs - hellish, you might say.

You are adamant that you believe Hell to be eternal according to your reading of the Quran (and indeed the Bible). I have a different point of view and am encouraged by your statement that indeed some Christians also believe that Hell will not be eternal and that God will extend his Mercy to the whole of Mankind.

My view is indeed based on the Quran and the Hadith I've quoted - which state that Hell will one day be empty.

You wish to believe in eternal hell, or a situation where God literally anhiliates souls - I can't reconcile this with the concept of a Merciful God. And you state that some Christians also share this view.

I thank you for bringing the various beliefs of Christians about hell - and I will now only respond if you bring some new information. As you say, the readers of this thread can read through the various viewpoints, examine the evidence and make up their own minds.

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, to me I see no difference between the Biblical descriptions of a lake of fire and brimstone, and eternal flames etc with those of the Quran. Both portray a very unpleasant state of affairs - hellish, you might say.

You don't see a difference between a passage about a lake of fire and passages of hell's inmates being bound to chains and then dragged through the bottoms of boiling cauldrons?

Or a passage that goes into graphic detail that the inmates of hell will have their skins burnt off and new skins put on to be burnt off again and again for all eternity?

Or passages of hell's denizens made to put on suits of fire and other grizzly punishments?

There's a reason why Dante was influenced by Islamic teachings on hell when he wrote the Inferno, not the New Testament.

But fair enough, the loon wants to deny the obvious that the Koran is far more graphic in providing details of hell's tortures and that the New Testament only uses metaphor to explain that hell is ultimately the absence of God's presence.

I have a different point of view

As long as we agree it's not based on the Koran.

My view is indeed based on the Quran and the Hadith I've quoted

Still waiting for those Koranic verses you think say that unbelievers sent to hell will only reside there for a definite period of time - and why should we ignore the Koran in favor of your belief that hell will one day be empty? This is not a Sunni Muslim belief, Ahmadis base their belief on a weak saying and ignore everything the Koran and Sahih hadith say of hell's eternal torments for non-believers.

I can't reconcile this with the concept of a Merciful God.

Glad we agree Allah is not merciful.

Just waiting for you to show which Muslims believe in a finite hell.

Seriously, it's your claim that such a belief is Islamic, what Muslims believe that?

I couldn't see in your post where you address the fact that most Christians believe in an eternal hell based on the Biblical descriptions of an unending fire etc.

I am encouraged that some Christians agree with the Islamic concept of a merciful God and believe that all people will be extended this mercy.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile the belief that some people will be in hell forever, and some will be annihilated with a concept of a merciful God.

I think you're just projecting your belief of an eternal hell onto the Quran - but that won't be the first time you are giving your interpretation and believe you are right. I've said why you're wrong and have presented the evidence. The fact that you're not convinced doesn't change the evidence presented.

Cheers,
Shafique

I couldn't see in your post where you address the fact that most Christians believe in an eternal hell based on the Biblical descriptions of an unending fire etc.

I would say most Christians believe the New Testament that describes hell as simply an absence from God.

But two could play at that game, I can't find anywhere in your posts where you have shown that a finite hell for unbelievers is an Islamic belief.

Which school of jurisprudence believes this? Are there mainstream Muslim spokesmen who have said this?

What about well known Islamic scholars in the Muslim world?

Do they all ignore the clear passages in the Koran?

I am encouraged that some Christians agree with the Islamic concept of a merciful God and believe that all people will be extended this mercy.

I think it's the other way around. But hey, nothing like repeating a claim when you're unable to show any proof for it.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile the belief that some people will be in hell forever, and some will be annihilated with a concept of a merciful God.

It's quite easy to arrive at different interpretations of the NT because different passages are cited to show support to different beliefs - hell being eternal, all of hell's denizens being saved, an absence of passages that actually say non-believers will be sent to hell, etc., etc.,

I think you're just projecting your belief of an eternal hell onto the Quran - but that won't be the first time you are giving your interpretation.

Tell you what, why not simply quote the Koran where it says that unbelievers will not be eternally tortured in hell?

In what way is a lake of fire and brimstone, and hell dwellers being subject to eternal flames any less gruesome than the Quranic descriptions of hell? Does the Biblical fire burn less hot? It certainly seems to burn longer - as it burns for an eternity.

As for the eeny, meenie, miny, moe explanation of what Christians believe Hell to be - which of the three versions should one believe (they can't all be right, can they?). Don't they all rely on ignoring other verses which support the alternative views? (How is this not a contradiction in the Bible?)

Either hell is eternal, God forgives and has mercy on all people - so Hell is not eternal, or the other belief that God will annihilate some souls who go to hell. Can you pick and choose the belief/interpretation of the Bible depending on what mood you're in - or does it depend on whether you actually read what the Bible says about Hell?

So, do you believe in an eternal hell or not? I don't and neither does blueshift!

How do you reconcile an eternal hell, or the fact that some Christians believe that some souls will just be rubbed out of existence with a Merciful God?

Cheers,
Shafique

In what way is a lake of fire and brimstone, and hell dwellers being subject to eternal flames any less gruesome than the Quranic descriptions of hell?

I think the graphic descriptions of the tortures of hell found in the Koran speak for themselves:

4:56: "Those who have disbelieved in Our signs - We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."

22:19-20: "These two opponents dispute [with each other] about their Lord. But those who disbelieve will have garments of fire cut out for them. Over their heads will be poured boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bellies as well as [their] skins."

14:49-50 "And you will see the sinners that Day bound together in chains and yokes - their garments of liquid pitch and their faces covered with fire."

54"47-8 "Truly, the criminals are in error and madness. The Day they will be dragged through the Fire on their faces, [they will hear], 'Taste the touch of Hell'"

etc.

vs

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Both portray a very unpleasant state of affairs - hellish, you might say.

The Koran certainly does go out of its way to portray the tortures that await non-believers in the afterlife, the New Testament doesn't.

You are adamant that you believe Hell to be eternal according to your reading of the Quran

The passages of the Koran are pretty explicit to me.

Why should we ignore what Allah repeatedly says?

My view is indeed based on the Quran and the Hadith I've quoted - which state that Hell will one day be empty.

So, your entire belief on hell being emptied is based on two weak hadith - ignoring the mountain of textual evidence from the Koran and Sahih hadith?

Oh, and what Muslims believe an unbeliever's habitation in hell as being temporary? You called this an Islamic belief, Muslims must actually first hold this belief to make it Islamic.

Metaphors in the scriptures
The Veda has clearly told that the Sun is not God (Nedam tat). Therefore, the Veda said that no item in the nature is the Lord (Neti Neti). Such natural objects are called representatives or models (Pratika). A teacher always teaches with the help of similes and models. The Veda is the theory class in which the preaching about the Lord is done with the help of similes. The world is the laboratory in which one can observe these models with concentration and know the qualities of the Lord.

Such a concentrated observation is called meditation and it reveals the nature of the Lord very clearly. Meditation does not mean constantly staring at the model. Meditation also does not mean closing the eyes and retaining the model in the mind. There is no use of such meditation, when it does not reveal the concept of the Lord. Clear knowledge should be the fruit of meditation. Keen observation of any model should give the clear concept.

The Lord is like a science professor. The Veda is like the correspondence course, which the sages read. They observed the models in the laboratory (world) and understood the concepts by themselves. Gradually the sages disappeared and ordinary human beings came in their place. Some did not understand. Some scholars misunderstood and misinterpreted the Veda. The result was that the rose flower was mistaken to be the girl. The sun was confirmed to be the Lord. The models like sun, fire, air, water, earth etc., were confirmed to be God or Goddess. Each river has become a Goddess. The power of the Lord called ‘Maya’ is constantly dynamic and it moves the world. Therefore ‘Maya’ was compared to a river. But now, each river has become the Goddess. The whole Veda gives the description of several natural items as similes to the Lord and to the power of the Lord. These natural items were called as God or Goddess (in a metaphorical sense) due to many similarities. Ignorant people have misunderstood it all. Therefore, the Lord came in the human form and gave the correct interpretation. It is just like the admission in a college instead of a correspondence course. In the college, the professor teaches everything clearly. Such college professors are Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Mahavir, Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva etc.

A model also exists, which indicates the concept that the Lord comes in human form. The students prepared this model. By the will of God, the human beings prepared the statues in human form, which indicate the incarnation of the Lord in human form. This model tells us that a particular human being alone is the Lord and not every human being. If every human being is the Lord, the statue should have been a general human being. The statues that are worshipped are of certain special human beings like Rama and Krishna. But again the same ignorance continued and people thought that the statue itself is the Lord.

Unfortunately, the clear passages in the Koran are not metaphors - allah is very explicit when he says that non-believers sent to hell will be tortured in the most ghastly ways for all eternity.

I do agree with you that the passages describing 'hell' in the New Testament are metaphorical as another way to describe an existence completely cut off from God.

Going back to the teachings of hell in the Koran, it would seem that some view these passages as forgeries - given that the passages are clear and the torture promised to unbelievers, explicit, I can't see any other alternative.

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