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eh - from now on I'm just going to post explanatory posts about Islamic teachings and will not engage you in debating what you think Islam teaches

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I guess you're taking this stance after your arguments have been punked.

I'm pretty certain that everyone is clear now that your agenda is not for a genuine dialogue

Right back at you.

(I'm not saying these Christian interpretations are wrong - just pointing out that a literal reading of the Bible states that hell is eternal and is pretty horrific - in a side by comparison of descriptions of Hell, the Biblical account is more horrific. But again only if taken literally).

LoL.

Sure it is.

The New Testament is no where near as graphic in describing the tortures and punishments of hell as the Koran does. You must be out of your mind.

I think the loon blinded by his own beliefs would be you, quite frankly.

But I'm happy to address the descriptions of hell found in the Koran and compare them to the New Testament:

philosophy-dubai/what-awaits-non-muslims-the-hereafter-t43953.html

By any objective standard that I can think of, the Koran is far more graphic in describing the tortures of hell.

But of course, our resident loon disagrees.

As for what Islam teaches - the descriptions of Hell are a little less gruesome than those found in the Bible and if your interpretation is correct

Sure they are.

the length of suffering of the inmates of hell is no shorter than those in 'Biblical' hell.

Actually, the Bible passages that refer to wicked souls as being annihilated would show that hell could be of a shorter duration in the Bible than in the Koran.

As, I said - the Islamic belief is that God is all Merciful and the Prophet, pbuh, taught that one day hell will be empty. Ergo - Hell is not infinite/eternal according to Islam

So the passages of an eternal hell in the Koran should be ignored.

it would be incompatible with a just, merciful God to punish people for ever, and ever and ever.

Well, we know that our definition of a just and merciful Allah is different from Allah's own definition of justice and mercy - he is only merciful to those who love him back.

This was proven by what the Koran says.

Also, bear in mind that the Quran does not say all non-believers go to hell or that all believers go to heaven. Each is judged individually.

The Bible doesn't say that unbelievers will go to hell. That's better than the contradictory messages of the Koran. Perhaps you should start taking your own advice before dishing it out to others?

Hazrat Omar (ra) states: "Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it" (Tafsir Fath-ul-Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-e- Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum).

"Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it" (Kanzul Ummal Vol. VII, page 245; Fatah-ul-Bayan fi Maqasid-ul-Quran by Siddiq ibn Hasan).

I can only find these ahadith on Yahooanswers.com and on a Sunni forum where one poster cited them - probably the same post you lifted your Koranic verse as well....

Seems like they're not Sahih (which another Muslim member told me of the Qadiani argument against an eternal hell a while ago). As usual, the theologically bankrupt beliefs of Qadianis are exposed.

You're cherry-picking obscure passages, taking others out of their immediate context and applying your own beliefs onto Allah that Allah must believe this or that because it's incompatible with your modern conception of mercy and justice - despite that Allah's conception of mercy is defined for us in the Koran.

That type of reasoning doesn't fly and, of course, is always subject to change as our own meanings of mercy and justice change as we progress. Soon, Muslims could start arguing that Gay Marriage should be allowed because it would be unjust for consenting adults to not marry because of the s.ex they happened to have been born into - regardless of what the Koran says of homo relations.

I think I'll let Berrin or dee7o (if he's still around) finish off your heretical beliefs. I have a lot of views on Islam, but they are certainly higher than my views on Qadianism and Qadianis. At least Muslims don't as frequently develop a convenient amnesia to the texts and teachings of their religion to convert others to their hip and mainstream God and prophet (although they certainly do that too).

So, in summary - Christians believe in eternal hell but interpret the hell to be something less than the horrific Biblical descriptions of Hell.

Take a New Testament description already quoted:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(Revelation 21:8).

A lake of 'Fire and Brimstone' - pretty horrific and ties in with the other descriptions of hell elsewhere in the Bible.

And another NT reference from Mark:

9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In Luke, Jesus tells us to Fear God - for He will send us to hell:

12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Blueshift and I agree that an eternity of punishment is not compatible (to us at least) with a concept of a Merciful God.

I've shown in the original article and with a couple of other references, the basis for the Islamic belief that Hell (which is hardly a pleasant place) is not eternal.

eh is arguing that Islam teaches that hell is eternal (i.e. is the same as the Christian concept of Hell in terms of duration). I disagree with his interpretation.

Cheers,
Shafique

I've shown in the original article and with a couple of other references, the basis for the Islamic belief that Hell (which is hardly a pleasant place) is not eternal.

Whose Islamic belief is that?

What does the Koran say of the eternity of hell?

So, in summary - Christians believe in eternal hell but interpret the hell to be something less than the horrific Biblical descriptions of Hell.

So, in summary - our resident troll is ignoring my comments and distorting what I have actually said.

I think any literate poster can go back to what I said and see that the NT offers several interpretations and that there is hardly a consensus in Christianity.

I've shown in the original article and with a couple of other references

Yes, I'm asking for Koranic verses showing that hell is not eternal for nonbelievers and why the clear and multiple passages should be ignored.

I agree with eh - the readers of this thread can indeed go back and read all the references posted and make up their own minds.

For me, I believe the concept of an eternal hell to be one that is incompatible with a loving God. And the interpretation by some Christians that God will just annihilate some souls rather than let them suffer eternally in hell is hardly any better (in terms of mercy) - I mean, in Islam all souls get to heaven but these Christians believe that some sinners will just be rubbed out of existence. (Which is what atheists believe in any case!)

Bible says that hell is eternal, so the argument that some say souls will be annihilated sounds like a cop-out to me. But again, this is just another example of an interpretation of the Biblical descriptions of Hell.

What is interesting is that there are some Christians who agree with the Islamic concept that God's mercy will extend to all humanity. So - a point of agreement amongst some Christians and Islamic teaching on this point.

Also, interesting to note that the quote from Luke 12:5 - talks about fearing him who can throw us into Hell (i.e. Fearing God). This is no different from Quranic instructions to fear God - but a Christian who reads Luke 12.5 and has a concept of an eternal hell must therefore have a greater fear than a Muslim who believes in a merciful God.

Cheers,
Shafique

I understand that you hold religious beliefs contrary to the Koran - you are an Ahmadi - but I am trying to understand a) where does the Koran say that unbelievers who are sent to hell will not be sent there for all eternity, b) why should we ignore the clear, descriptive and numerous passages that unbelievers will be sent to hell for an eternity of punishment and c) which school of jurisprudence holds that non-Muslims sent to hell will not remain there for an eternity?

We can compare the graphic descriptions of the Koran's version of hell to the NT's and whether the NT is as descriptive of hell as the Koran is or if the NT clearly says that non-believers will be sent to hell as clearly as the Koran does on another thread.

You're really not trying to argue that Christianity says Hell is a nice place or that a lake of fire and brimstone is somehow less descriptive than the Quranic descriptions - are you?

At the end of the day, we disagree over whether Hell is eternal or not. Your view is that the Bible is correct and that hell is eternal (but some sinners will just be erased so their suffering will be shortened by a complete annihilation).

The Islamic concept of Hell is that it is not a pleasant place (duh!) - and that it will be inhabited by Muslims and non-Muslims whom God adjudges need to go to hell before being admitted to Heaven.

Christian dogma seems to me to be more harsh - all those who don't believe in Jesus go to hell. Hell is eternal. The only 'get out' is that if you've sinned enough (or perhaps not enough?) you get rubbed out of existence. It appears therefore that you believe that Hell is a one-way trip.

Islam on the other hand teaches that God is all Merciful and the Prophet taught that Hell would one day be empty. As you point out, some Christians share this view that God's mercy will touch all humanity, but you imply these Christians are in the minority.

You wish to interpret Quranic verses as stating there will be an eternal hell, when there are Christians who interpret Biblical verses as a non-eternal hell (i.e. along the Islamic lines).

Therefore, we have to choose between your interpretation and belief of Hell and the one I've detailed as the Islamic concept.

Cheers,
Shafique

that a lake of fire and brimstone is somehow less descriptive than the Quranic descriptions - are you?

Yes, a lake of fire (which is metaphorical description of hell) is less descriptive than this:

4:56: "Those who have disbelieved in Our signs - We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."

22:19-20: "These two opponents dispute [with each other] about their Lord. But those who disbelieve will have garments of fire cut out for them. Over their heads will be poured boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bellies as well as [their] skins."

14:49-50 "And you will see the sinners that Day bound together in chains and yokes - their garments of liquid pitch and their faces covered with fire."

23:103-4 "But those who scales [of good] are light, those are the ones who have lost their souls; [they will abide] in Hell eternally. The fire will burn, their faces, and they will [appear to] grin therein, their lips displaced."

21:39-40 "If only the unbelievers knew [about] when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor from their backs, and [that] they will not be helped. No, but it will come to them suddenly and confound them. And they will not be able to avert it, nor will they be given respite."

54"47-8 "Truly, the criminals are in error and madness. The Day they will be dragged through the Fire on their faces, [they will hear], 'Taste the touch of Hell'"

40:69 "Do you not see those who dispute concerning the signs of Allah - how they are turned away [from truth]? Those who reject the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers - soon they will know. When the yokes [will be] round their necks and the chains. They will be dragged in the boiling water. Then in the Fire they will be burned."

44.43-46 "Surely the tree of the Zaqqum, is the food of the sinful. Like dregs of oil; it shall boil in (their) bellies, like the boiling of hot water."

5:037 "They will desire to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it; for them awaits a lasting chastisement.:

43:74-75 Lo! the guilty are immortal in hell's torment. It is not relaxed for them, and they despair therein.

2:167 and those that followed say, 'O if only we might return again and disown them, as they have disowned us!' Even so God shall show them their works. O bitter regrets for them! Never shall they issue from the Fire.

35:36 As for the unbelievers, theirs shall be the fire of Gehenna; they shall neither be done with and die, nor shall its chastisement be lightened for them. Even so We recompense every ungrateful one.

I have to laugh, are you actually trying to argue the Koran is less descriptive of hell than the New Testament?

You're really out of your mind.

Your view is that the Bible is correct and that hell is eternal (but some sinners will just be erased so their suffering will be shortened by a complete annihilation).

Lie. I never gave my view, I offered three traditional and mainstream views of Christianity. All three are based on what the New Testament says.

Christian dogma seems to me to be more harsh

Why not compare it to Islamic dogma?

Which Muslims believe that unbelievers are only temporarily punished in hell?

Actually, Christian dogma (whatever that means) is far less sadistic than what Islam teaches since the New Testament compares hell to the absence of God's presence whereas the Koran's descriptions of hell are nothing more than depictions of mindless brutality and violence.

Islam on the other hand teaches that God is all Merciful and the Prophet taught that Hell would one day be empty.

Which Muslims believe this?

As you point out, some Christians share this view that God's mercy will touch all humanity, but you imply these Christians are in the minority.

They are much more numerous than the Muslims who share the same views.

You wish to interpret Quranic verses as stating there will be an eternal hell, when there are Christians who interpret Biblical verses as a non-eternal hell (i.e. along the Islamic lines).

Just let me know which school of jurisprudence holds that unbelievers sent to hell will eventually be sent to paradise.

Then we can compare this to what the various Christian denominations teach.

Repeating your arguments won't change the evidence or views already presented.

As I said, to me I see no difference between the Biblical descriptions of a lake of fire and brimstone, and eternal flames etc with those of the Quran. Both portray a very unpleasant state of affairs - hellish, you might say.

You are adamant that you believe Hell to be eternal according to your reading of the Quran (and indeed the Bible). I have a different point of view and am encouraged by your statement that indeed some Christians also believe that Hell will not be eternal and that God will extend his Mercy to the whole of Mankind.

My view is indeed based on the Quran and the Hadith I've quoted - which state that Hell will one day be empty.

You wish to believe in eternal hell, or a situation where God literally anhiliates souls - I can't reconcile this with the concept of a Merciful God. And you state that some Christians also share this view.

I thank you for bringing the various beliefs of Christians about hell - and I will now only respond if you bring some new information. As you say, the readers of this thread can read through the various viewpoints, examine the evidence and make up their own minds.

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, to me I see no difference between the Biblical descriptions of a lake of fire and brimstone, and eternal flames etc with those of the Quran. Both portray a very unpleasant state of affairs - hellish, you might say.

You don't see a difference between a passage about a lake of fire and passages of hell's inmates being bound to chains and then dragged through the bottoms of boiling cauldrons?

Or a passage that goes into graphic detail that the inmates of hell will have their skins burnt off and new skins put on to be burnt off again and again for all eternity?

Or passages of hell's denizens made to put on suits of fire and other grizzly punishments?

There's a reason why Dante was influenced by Islamic teachings on hell when he wrote the Inferno, not the New Testament.

But fair enough, the loon wants to deny the obvious that the Koran is far more graphic in providing details of hell's tortures and that the New Testament only uses metaphor to explain that hell is ultimately the absence of God's presence.

I have a different point of view

As long as we agree it's not based on the Koran.

My view is indeed based on the Quran and the Hadith I've quoted

Still waiting for those Koranic verses you think say that unbelievers sent to hell will only reside there for a definite period of time - and why should we ignore the Koran in favor of your belief that hell will one day be empty? This is not a Sunni Muslim belief, Ahmadis base their belief on a weak saying and ignore everything the Koran and Sahih hadith say of hell's eternal torments for non-believers.

I can't reconcile this with the concept of a Merciful God.

Glad we agree Allah is not merciful.

Just waiting for you to show which Muslims believe in a finite hell.

Seriously, it's your claim that such a belief is Islamic, what Muslims believe that?

I couldn't see in your post where you address the fact that most Christians believe in an eternal hell based on the Biblical descriptions of an unending fire etc.

I am encouraged that some Christians agree with the Islamic concept of a merciful God and believe that all people will be extended this mercy.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile the belief that some people will be in hell forever, and some will be annihilated with a concept of a merciful God.

I think you're just projecting your belief of an eternal hell onto the Quran - but that won't be the first time you are giving your interpretation and believe you are right. I've said why you're wrong and have presented the evidence. The fact that you're not convinced doesn't change the evidence presented.

Cheers,
Shafique

I couldn't see in your post where you address the fact that most Christians believe in an eternal hell based on the Biblical descriptions of an unending fire etc.

I would say most Christians believe the New Testament that describes hell as simply an absence from God.

But two could play at that game, I can't find anywhere in your posts where you have shown that a finite hell for unbelievers is an Islamic belief.

Which school of jurisprudence believes this? Are there mainstream Muslim spokesmen who have said this?

What about well known Islamic scholars in the Muslim world?

Do they all ignore the clear passages in the Koran?

I am encouraged that some Christians agree with the Islamic concept of a merciful God and believe that all people will be extended this mercy.

I think it's the other way around. But hey, nothing like repeating a claim when you're unable to show any proof for it.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile the belief that some people will be in hell forever, and some will be annihilated with a concept of a merciful God.

It's quite easy to arrive at different interpretations of the NT because different passages are cited to show support to different beliefs - hell being eternal, all of hell's denizens being saved, an absence of passages that actually say non-believers will be sent to hell, etc., etc.,

I think you're just projecting your belief of an eternal hell onto the Quran - but that won't be the first time you are giving your interpretation.

Tell you what, why not simply quote the Koran where it says that unbelievers will not be eternally tortured in hell?

In what way is a lake of fire and brimstone, and hell dwellers being subject to eternal flames any less gruesome than the Quranic descriptions of hell? Does the Biblical fire burn less hot? It certainly seems to burn longer - as it burns for an eternity.

As for the eeny, meenie, miny, moe explanation of what Christians believe Hell to be - which of the three versions should one believe (they can't all be right, can they?). Don't they all rely on ignoring other verses which support the alternative views? (How is this not a contradiction in the Bible?)

Either hell is eternal, God forgives and has mercy on all people - so Hell is not eternal, or the other belief that God will annihilate some souls who go to hell. Can you pick and choose the belief/interpretation of the Bible depending on what mood you're in - or does it depend on whether you actually read what the Bible says about Hell?

So, do you believe in an eternal hell or not? I don't and neither does blueshift!

How do you reconcile an eternal hell, or the fact that some Christians believe that some souls will just be rubbed out of existence with a Merciful God?

Cheers,
Shafique

In what way is a lake of fire and brimstone, and hell dwellers being subject to eternal flames any less gruesome than the Quranic descriptions of hell?

I think the graphic descriptions of the tortures of hell found in the Koran speak for themselves:

4:56: "Those who have disbelieved in Our signs - We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."

22:19-20: "These two opponents dispute [with each other] about their Lord. But those who disbelieve will have garments of fire cut out for them. Over their heads will be poured boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bellies as well as [their] skins."

14:49-50 "And you will see the sinners that Day bound together in chains and yokes - their garments of liquid pitch and their faces covered with fire."

54"47-8 "Truly, the criminals are in error and madness. The Day they will be dragged through the Fire on their faces, [they will hear], 'Taste the touch of Hell'"

etc.

vs

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Both portray a very unpleasant state of affairs - hellish, you might say.

The Koran certainly does go out of its way to portray the tortures that await non-believers in the afterlife, the New Testament doesn't.

You are adamant that you believe Hell to be eternal according to your reading of the Quran

The passages of the Koran are pretty explicit to me.

Why should we ignore what Allah repeatedly says?

My view is indeed based on the Quran and the Hadith I've quoted - which state that Hell will one day be empty.

So, your entire belief on hell being emptied is based on two weak hadith - ignoring the mountain of textual evidence from the Koran and Sahih hadith?

Oh, and what Muslims believe an unbeliever's habitation in hell as being temporary? You called this an Islamic belief, Muslims must actually first hold this belief to make it Islamic.

Metaphors in the scriptures
The Veda has clearly told that the Sun is not God (Nedam tat). Therefore, the Veda said that no item in the nature is the Lord (Neti Neti). Such natural objects are called representatives or models (Pratika). A teacher always teaches with the help of similes and models. The Veda is the theory class in which the preaching about the Lord is done with the help of similes. The world is the laboratory in which one can observe these models with concentration and know the qualities of the Lord.

Such a concentrated observation is called meditation and it reveals the nature of the Lord very clearly. Meditation does not mean constantly staring at the model. Meditation also does not mean closing the eyes and retaining the model in the mind. There is no use of such meditation, when it does not reveal the concept of the Lord. Clear knowledge should be the fruit of meditation. Keen observation of any model should give the clear concept.

The Lord is like a science professor. The Veda is like the correspondence course, which the sages read. They observed the models in the laboratory (world) and understood the concepts by themselves. Gradually the sages disappeared and ordinary human beings came in their place. Some did not understand. Some scholars misunderstood and misinterpreted the Veda. The result was that the rose flower was mistaken to be the girl. The sun was confirmed to be the Lord. The models like sun, fire, air, water, earth etc., were confirmed to be God or Goddess. Each river has become a Goddess. The power of the Lord called ‘Maya’ is constantly dynamic and it moves the world. Therefore ‘Maya’ was compared to a river. But now, each river has become the Goddess. The whole Veda gives the description of several natural items as similes to the Lord and to the power of the Lord. These natural items were called as God or Goddess (in a metaphorical sense) due to many similarities. Ignorant people have misunderstood it all. Therefore, the Lord came in the human form and gave the correct interpretation. It is just like the admission in a college instead of a correspondence course. In the college, the professor teaches everything clearly. Such college professors are Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Mahavir, Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva etc.

A model also exists, which indicates the concept that the Lord comes in human form. The students prepared this model. By the will of God, the human beings prepared the statues in human form, which indicate the incarnation of the Lord in human form. This model tells us that a particular human being alone is the Lord and not every human being. If every human being is the Lord, the statue should have been a general human being. The statues that are worshipped are of certain special human beings like Rama and Krishna. But again the same ignorance continued and people thought that the statue itself is the Lord.

Unfortunately, the clear passages in the Koran are not metaphors - allah is very explicit when he says that non-believers sent to hell will be tortured in the most ghastly ways for all eternity.

I do agree with you that the passages describing 'hell' in the New Testament are metaphorical as another way to describe an existence completely cut off from God.

Going back to the teachings of hell in the Koran, it would seem that some view these passages as forgeries - given that the passages are clear and the torture promised to unbelievers, explicit, I can't see any other alternative.

philosophy-dubai/life-after-death-according-islam-t11871-15.html#p352718

event horizon wrote:Unfortunately, the clear passages in the Koran are not metaphors - allah is very explicit when he says that non-believers sent to hell will be tortured in the most ghastly ways for all eternity.

I do agree with you that the passages describing 'hell' in the New Testament are metaphorical as another way to describe an existence completely cut off from God.

Going back to the teachings of hell in the Koran, it would seem that some view these passages as forgeries - given that the passages are clear and the torture promised to unbelievers, explicit, I can't see any other alternative.

philosophy-dubai/life-after-death-according-islam-t11871-15.html#p352718

Punishment given for a sin is only to change the mind of the soul and purify it. There is no trace of revenge in this. The hell is an indication of the intensive love of God to the souls through which God wants to reform the souls. The hell indicates the hectic effort of God put on the soul to reform it and not to leave the soul for its fate. A father may leave his son since he is not changing inspite of all his efforts. But in the hell God puts serious effort and succeeds to change the soul. Therefore, even thousands of fathers cannot be equal to God. God is not leaving the soul without changing it and this point is indicated by the punishment and hell. Therefore, there is no point of excusing the Prarabhdas if this true basis is understood. God will try to change the soul through preaching as far as possible. Punishment in the hell is the last resort. Once the soul is reformed all the sins are smashed since there is neither the necessity of preaching nor the necessity of punishment.

Unfortunately, Islam teaches that the souls of unbeleivers sent to hell will be tortured for all time. I can't see any other alternative than to believe these clear and multiple passages are forgeries and should therefore be ignored.

The accounts of torture in the Koran are quite graphic, too. So, there is no indication that the torture these souls will experience will be any less severe than what the Koran indicates.

I can't see how God would torture souls for all eternity as a form of love. and since the torture of souls, in the Koran, is said to last forever, what reform could be said to take place?

Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

event horizon wrote:Unfortunately, Islam teaches that the souls of unbeleivers sent to hell will be tortured for all time. I can't see any other alternative than to believe these clear and multiple passages are forgeries and should therefore be ignored.

The accounts of torture in the Koran are quite graphic, too. So, there is no indication that the torture these souls will experience will be any less severe than what the Koran indicates.

I can't see how God would torture souls for all eternity as a form of love. and since the torture of souls, in the Koran, is said to last forever, what reform could be said to take place?

Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

The earth, hell and heaven come under the plane of materialism (Pravrutti) only. The punishment on the earth and the punishment in the hell differ just by the areas present in the same realm of Pravrutti. It is just the difference between a jail in India and a jail in Andaman Islands in the olden days. Therefore, the postponed sin along with the interest can be met with punishment in the hell or in the next birth. It is one and the same. The serious deeds good or bad will yield results in this birth it self (Atyutkataih Papa Punyaiah Ihaiva Phalamashnute..).

The place and time have no significance. Only the quality and quantity of the nature (good or bad) of a deed and its subsequent fruit destined by the constitution of God are important. As the postponement increases, the interest also increases. You will receive the principle along with the interest in any online branch of the divine bank existing on this earth or in the upper world. Actually the deeds are inert actions and do not follow the soul. Only the essence of the deed which is alive in the form of quality (Guna or Samskara) follows the soul and from the color and intensity of the quality, results are decided by the divine computer called Yama for bad deeds and Indra for good deeds.

Kalabhairava is the over all in-charge of super vision in implementing the results (Karanam Guna Samgosya…Gita). Sattvam is white, Rajas is red and Tamas is black. Therefore, the internal intention (Sankalpa) of the mind which is made of these three qualities decides good and bad of a deed and not the inert subsequent action. The cycle of deeds and its administration is simplified based on the specific quality and its quantity. This is the simplified picture of the system of deeds, which is followed by the judge in the final enquiry. Of course, the total network of deeds with all the minute details also exists inside the system, which can be referred if necessary (Gahana Karmanogatih…).

-- Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:11 am --

event horizon wrote:Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

Some people say that the Lord preaches with love and kindness in the world for transformation. If the soul is not transformed, the soul will be thrown to hell permanently at the end of this life. They say that the Lord should not punish the soul in this world. This is exactly similar to say that you should preach the student and if the student fails, he should be hanged to death permanently at the end of the period. You are not allowing punishing with cane during the period.

Therefore before the final punishment temporary punishment must be also given to the soul. Before the final examination interim examinations are also conducted. If the student fails in the interim examinations, there will be a chance for the student to correct himself before the final examination. Therefore interim punishments are part and parcel of the coaching before the final examination. The Lord adopts different procedures of coaching in different regions based on the psychology and attitude of the human beings. You should not criticize the procedure of the Lord which is different in some other religion and region.

-- Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:12 am --

event horizon wrote:I can't see how God would torture souls for all eternity as a form of love. and since the torture of souls, in the Koran, is said to last forever, what reform could be said to take place?

Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

Generally, one worships God through practical devotion (service) in order to avoid the negative results. Such attitude is a failure to achieve the real love and permanent grace of God. You must learn to enjoy the negative results also like hot dishes in the meal. In fact, due to the divine knowledge attained by the grace of God, try to find out more benefit in the negative result so that at least the negative result can be enjoyed equally with the positive result. Whenever, you start to do a work, you pray for the blessings of the Lord to get victory and benefit. The defeat and loss are never expected even in the mind. The elders always bless you to succeed and get the profit. They will never bless you to enjoy even the negative result, if attained.

They feel inauspicious even to utter the possibility of negative result even as the next alternative. But Lord Krishna says to Arjuna in Gita “If you die in the war you will enjoy the heavenly pleasures and if you win you will enjoy the pleasures on this earth” (Hatovaa Prapsyase Swargam …..Gita).

The Lord is giving blessings with the negative result in the beginning and the positive result is mentioned as the next alternative only. The Lord is showing more happiness in the negative result than the positive result because the heavenly pleasures are more superior to the pleasures on the earth. It is just like saying that if you are defeated in a work you will get a treat in the five star hotel and if you win you will get a treat in ordinary hotel. The Lord says that He is giving the analytical faculty to laugh at results of the deeds (Buddhyaa Yukto…..Gita).

The ignorant fellow may laugh at the statement of Krishna, but a scholar will laugh at the ignorance in analyzing the welfare in the positive and negative results. Actually the negative result giving you misery is for your welfare only to become near to God. The positive result is for your loss by which you are far from God. The punishment purifies you from all bad effects and the boon will pollute you with ego and ignorance. You must have faith in God that He is always doing everything for your welfare only. In such case, you are never upset in the life and hence there is no need of linking your devotion to the favor from God.

You are mistaking the favor of God as His anger and the anger of God as His favor. The divine knowledge, which is harsh to you, is always in your welfare and Satguru who gives such divine knowledge is the human form of God. Majority likes the sweet, which harms in long run and welcomes the knowledge preached by the preachers who are the human forms of Satan.

Generally, one worships God through practical devotion (service) in order to avoid the negative results.

So the ultimate motivator for worshiping allah and his prophet, Muhammad, is fear?

As a non-Muslim, that type of idea is very disturbing to me.

event horizon wrote:So the ultimate motivator for worshiping allah and his prophet, Muhammad, is fear?

Fear is what motivates people to adhere to a law or code, For example all the laws in the world would not exist if they were not "enforced" , the fear of violating a law is what makes that law a reality.

Anarchist views of existence , even though sounding noble is impractical. Even the application of DEMOCRACY is not FULLY APPLIED anywhere in the world.

Historically there were kingdoms and tribe leaders , all who were adhered to due to fear.

From a scientific point of view, Fear can be thought of as Negative Reinforcement and Reward as Positive Reinforcement. The result of this is termed as "conditioning" , We are all CONDITIONED to behave in a certain way and have the opinions of whatever. Both are practiced consciously or subconsciously in daily life.

Even as a child thats how you knew what was right or wrong.

event horizon wrote:

Generally, one worships God through practical devotion (service) in order to avoid the negative results.

So the ultimate motivator for worshiping allah and his prophet, Muhammad, is fear?

As a non-Muslim, that type of idea is very disturbing to me.

Faith developed through prayers & songs using superpowers of God for solutions will not stand forever because God will not answer always for the prayers, songs & crying with tears. People become addicted for such ways.

Child weeps every time for chocolate, which is habituated for that path. Child intensifies process of weeping if chocolate is delayed! Initially child is attracted by chocolates to go to school for some days. Child has become young person but did not cross first standard of school, because child concentrated only on art of weeping to get chocolates.

Person became postgraduate & even a Ph.D. degree holder in course of begging & weeping for chocolates. Person became exceptional scholar & developed several talents in praising Lord, crying for Lord, singing & music on Lord, meditation & concentration on Lord with mind, chanting name for millions of times, writing name of Lord for millions of times, chanting some letters (Beejaksharas or mantras), drawing some design diagrams on metallic plates (Yantras), doing worship following certain special ways of technology (Tantras) & so on. These discoveries and developments are tremendous & as many as developments in Science & Technology!

Ofcourse, all these are good psychological ways of solutions in treating certain psycho-patients with fixed notions to give mental relief of stress & confidence. All these ways are good, if person is without aspiration of any fruit from God in return. Such love is real. But real love is expressed in terms of sacrifice of work & sacrifice of fruit of work as seen in case of your love on your children. If such practical expression exists, all above theoretical expression of love through words & mind can be associated as plate of meals is associated with cup of drinking water.

-- Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:07 am --

zubber wrote:

event horizon wrote:.........ns of whatever. Both are practiced consciously or subconsciously in daily life.

Even as a child thats how you knew what was right or wrong.

The cause of fear is only the ignorance about God. The complete knowledge about God removes the fear completely. You can neither protect your self nor others. Any item of the creation cannot protect any other item of the creation. The reason is every item has production and destruction. Even the Lord in the human form has birth and death but has no fear. Jesus knows about His future crucification. He never feared about it before or during the crucification. He never feared for the soldiers who came to arrest Him. He never argued about His case in the court, because He knows that the crucification has to take place by the will of God. Therefore when you have the knowledge of God and the knowledge of His will, you will not fear even about the death.

The death proves that everything and everybody other than God gets destroyed. There fore Jesus asked the people to fear about themselves and about their children and not about His death. Lord Rama jumped into the river with smiling face, Lord Krishna was smiling while leaving His body. Sri Padavallabha and Sri Narasimha Saraswati merged in the Krishna river with smiles. Therefore one will not fear even for death if the divine knowledge is attained. Gita says that death is only changing the old shirt. Where the divine knowledge exists like sunlight, the fear vanishes like darkness. Even in the last statement of Jesus no trace of fear appears as He said that He is surrendering His soul to the hands of God. Veda says that the limited knowledge is cause of the fear (Atha Tasya Bhayam….).