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event horizon · Mar 03, 2010

The Pagaans all acknowledged that Allah was one of those to be worshipped - but only objected to the notion that other gods could not be worshipped alongside God.

Right, and the Koran is clear that they had to convert to Islam if they wanted to worship in the sacred Mosque. Is this really your justification for blatant religious discrimination and intolerance? One of the dumbest I've ever read.

I don't see the injunction that the Kaaba be returned to the original mono-theistic roots to be a war crime.

You don't see prohibiting Pagans from worshiping at the Kaaba to be a crime?

Unbelievable.

event horizon · Mar 03, 2010

shafique wrote:So, you won't condemn the Israeli war crimes.

Interesting.

Cheers,
Shafique

Why don't you quote me where I supposedly 'condoned' Israel's actions in this thread?

Is it so hard for you to quote me from now on whenever you address my posts?

event horizon · Mar 03, 2010

This thread should be stickied just for anyone to be acquainted with your tactics.

shafique · Mar 03, 2010

Great, I'm glad my view that it wasn't a crime registered with you.

In a way, I'm sort of relieved I do have a different perspective on what constitutes a war crime than you - for example, I would be mortified if I had your view that it was ok to enslave and rape 32,000 virgins and slaughter men and women in cold blood.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Mar 03, 2010

Well, if you do condemn Israeli war crimes - why don't you just state this fact.

You don't condemn the Israelites when they butchered women etc and enslaved virgins, so I guess you are being consistent by not condemning more recent war crimes.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 03, 2010

Great, I'm glad my view that it wasn't a crime registered with you.

Would it be a crime if Israel took over al-Aqsa mosque, converted it to a Synagogue and prevented Muslims from worshiping at the Synagogue?

event horizon · Mar 03, 2010

shafique wrote:Well, if you do condemn Israeli war crimes - why don't you just state this fact.

You don't condemn the Israelites when they butchered women etc and enslaved virgins, so I guess you are being consistent by not condemning more recent war crimes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Why don't you quote me where you claimed that I condoned Israel's actions in this thread?

Or are you just afraid of being exposed as liar, once again?

shafique · Mar 03, 2010

You say it is ok for Israelite to slaughter civilians and enslave/rape 32,000 virgins.

I asked whether you condemned (or even acknowledged) the war crime carried out in the 60's when the Israelies violated international law and evicted Muslims from their homes in the Maghreb quarter. Your silence was taken by me as a refusal to condemn this war crime.

You have the opportunity to clarify and correct this conclusion if it is a mistaken one - do you condemn the Israeli war crime or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 03, 2010

Your lies are getting even more pathetic.

You claimed that I condoned Israeli 'discrimination' against Arabs in the SAME post that you first brought up East Jerusalem.

Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. bla bla bla.....

Where did I condone Israeli 'racism' in any post prior to this one:

philosophy-dubai/koranic-war-crimes-t40739.html#p328808

You said:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?

So, which post, prior to the one I linked to, did I 'condone' racism by Israel. You compound your poor reading comprehension by making things up on the fly.

Amazingly, it is only Muslims who are as consistent at distorting the posts of others'. I have no problem with anyone else doing this - even the majority of Muslims I've had discussions with, including *most* of the Muslim posters on this forum - rudeboy, berrin, dee70, etc.

If you just followed my simple rule (so simple, even you could follow it) you would have fewer chances to blatantly lie like this.

shafique · Mar 03, 2010

It was a simple question - given that you are ok with Israelites slaughtering civilians and enslaving/raping 32,000 virgins, why would I not assume you condone Israeli war crimes when you presented excuses for their actions rather than condemn them?

So, do you or do you not condemn (or even acknowledge) the Israeli war crime committed after the 1967 war when they bulldozed and evicted Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter and continue to refuse them to return to their land? This is both immoral and illegal under the Geneva conventions.

How am I distorting your views about war crimes?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?

Where did I say it was 'ok' for the Israeli government to discriminate against Muslims?

What's the matter, spewing so many lies that you can't keep track of everything?

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

I asked whether you thought Israel's war crime after the 1967 war where it bulldozed the homes of Muslims in the Maghreb quarter and still refuses them the right to return to their land was not as bad (or worse) than preventing Pagans from worshipping Idols in Mecca.

You made excuses about it not being an appropriate analogy, but did not acknowledge or condemn this war crime of the Israelis.

I'm giving you the opportunity to clarify whether you do indeed acknowledge and condemn Israeli war crimes or not.

Given that you don't condemn Israelite cold blooded massacres of civilians because you think the excuse 'god told us to do it' is valid, I would understand why you don't want to condemn lesser war crimes such as the one in 1967.

Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

You made excuses about it not being an appropriate analogy, but did not acknowledge or condemn this war crime of the Israelis.

Sorry, but that isn't true:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. bla bla bla.....

You claimed in the same post where you first mentioned the bulldozing, that I said it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims.

Bringing up East Jerusalem is a red herring since East Jerusalem was *never* mentioned in any prior post

I am asking you to quote me from this thread where you think I said that it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims.

Further lies won't help you, I'm afraid.

Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

Why don't you stop lying and find the quote *before* this post philosophy-dubai/koranic-war-crimes-t40739.html#p328808 where I said that it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims?

event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

BTW, if anyone doesn't want to waste their time reading through the posts in the first page, they can just search for the word 'bulldozing' or 'East' 'Jerusalem' and see for themselves that they were first mentioned in this post:

So, it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims - why am I not surprised at this answer?

You over look one fact though - when the Israelis conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they violated international law by evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter. This was a war crime under the Geneva conventions- and the fact the Muslims are prevented from returning to their homes (which are now all gone) is pretty much worse than preventing Pagans from worshipping at the Kaaba (the pagans weren't deprived of their homes).

philosophy-dubai/koranic-war-crimes-t40739.html#p328808

The same post where he said that I said that it's ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims.

Not only did shafique lie once by attributing a statement to me that I never said, but he compounded his lie by claiming that it was brought up *after* he mentioned something about Israel and bulldozing homes.

Obviously, it's clear that shafique is a compulsive liar. This guy is a moderator (and presumably, he has responsibilities in the real world).

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

shafique wrote:Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

Well, I started a thread on your typical tactics, including your claim that I said that it is ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and your belief that I had said that the bulldozing of homes was a false analogy.

I'll await for your to clarify your lies in either this thread or the other one. Perhaps, since you were caught lying twice in one thread, you can clarify one lie in each thread.

It's your choice, do you want to find the quote and post it here where you claim I supported discrimination against Muslims by the state of Israel, or do you want to quote me where I said that bulldozing homes was a 'false analogy'?

For the record, I maintain that I never said that it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and I never said that bulldozing homes was a false analogy - I *clearly* said on the first page that your comparison to Muslims supposedly not being able to worship at the wailing wall was a false analogy.

But hey, I look forward to you quoting me where I actually said either of the above.

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

shafique wrote:Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

I said I'm glad you started a thread on Quranic war crimes, this means we can contrast it with the Biblical war crimes thread where you justify the massacres of innocents and enslavement of virgins, and even liken these acts to those of angels.

Here, I don't view the instruction that pagans can't worship at the Ka'aba as a war crime, but have pointed out that it would be hypocritical to say that this was a war crime and excuse the latter-day Israeli war crime I've asked your views on above.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 04, 2010

Jews are not even allowed to move their lips on the Temple Mount, since it might resemble praying. :shock:

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

Didn't Sharon move his lips when he visited Temple Mount on September 28, 2000?

Was he breaking the law as well as being provocative? :shock:

Anyway, let's see whether eh answers the questions I posed about whether he condemns the 1967 war crime committed by Israel when they bulldozed homes and evicted Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter in Jerusalem (which they captured in the 1967 war) - and continue to refuse them the right to return to their land/homes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 04, 2010

shafique wrote:Didn't Sharon move his lips when he visited Temple Mount on September 28, 2000?

Was he breaking the law as well as being provocative?

It concerns a recent ruling from a few years ago. Why was it provocative? The Al-Aqsa mosque is a provocation by itself, comparable by dropping herds of living pigs on the Kaaba. If Israel would follow the example set by the Muslim invasion some 1400 years ago, Israel would bulldoze down the Al-Aqsa mosque. But Israel respects other religions, contrary to the heartland of Islam.

Enough about Israel, back to discussing Koranic war crimes, a lot to discuss there.

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

Well, Sharon's visit led to an Intefada - pretty provocative by all accounts. So, the Israelis have passed a law that forbids Jewish people from moving their lips on haram-al-sharif? Interesting, I didn't catch that piece of news.

As for the history of Jerusalem, you must have different history books from me - mine says Jews lived in peace under Muslim rule and were quite aggrieved when the Crusaders took Jerusalem (with good reason) and welcomed Salahuddin when he recaptured Jerusalem.

Wasn't it the Romans who destroyed the temple? Perhaps they were acting like angels as well when they did it?

Anyway, let's see what eh has to say about the more recent war crime of 1967 in regards to the bulldozing of the Maghreb quarter and the continuing refusal to give this area back to those who lived there (or their descendants). Clear breach of Geneva conventions to evict people from home after occupying a territory after a war... so let's see what eh's stance is on it.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

event horizon wrote:Well, I started a thread on your typical tactics, including your claim that I said that it is ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and your belief that I had said that the bulldozing of homes was a false analogy.

I'll await for your to clarify your lies in either this thread or the other one. Perhaps, since you were caught lying twice in one thread, you can clarify one lie in each thread.

It's your choice, do you want to find the quote and post it here where you claim I supported discrimination against Muslims by the state of Israel, or do you want to quote me where I said that bulldozing homes was a 'false analogy'?

For the record, I maintain that I never said that it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and I never said that bulldozing homes was a false analogy - I *clearly* said on the first page that your comparison to Muslims supposedly not being able to worship at the wailing wall was a false analogy.

But hey, I look forward to you quoting me where I actually said either of the above.

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

I guess you didn't register that I don't agree that expelling Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter adjacent to the Western Wall isn't an appropriate analogy to the alleged war crime of preventing Pagans Arabs from worshipping at the Kaaba.

As this is a thread about war crimes, I asked (quite reasonably, I think) whether you acknowledged that Israel committed a war crime when they evicted the residents and bulldozed the homes of those living in the Maghreb quarter after gaining control in the 1967 war? By modern definitions (and by the Geneva conventions) this is a war crime.

This is not 'discrimination' only - but a war crime.

The question was quite simple - do you acknowledge the war crime and if you do, do you condemn it?

(I've already answered your direct question about whether I think the prevention of idolatory in the Kaaba was a war crime - I said I do not)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 05, 2010

I guess you didn't register that I don't agree that expelling Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter adjacent to the Western Wall isn't an appropriate analogy to the alleged war crime of preventing Pagans Arabs from worshipping at the Kaaba.

Too bad that wasn't what you originally said:

no, I don't see the restriction of Pagans from worshipping at the Kaaba to be a war crime. Is it a war crime today that Israel does not allow Muslims to visit the wailing wall? (Or, if they do allow Muslims, would it be a war crime if they refused Arab Palestinians, say, from visiting the wall?)

In any event, I have no idea what you are saying is correct. But your comparison is a false analogy because Muslims have never worshiped at the wailing wall like the Pagan Arabs did before they were prohibited from doing so.

Now, do you join me in condemning the Koran for prohibiting Pagans from using their own house of worship?

(I've already answered your direct question about whether I think the prevention of idolatory in the Kaaba was a war crime - I said I do not)

Would categorically preventing Muslims from worshiping at al-Aqsa mosque and turning it into a Synagogue (where only Jews can worship and step foot inside) be a crime in your mind?

shafique · Mar 05, 2010

I'm not sure how many times you want me to answer your first allegation and how many times you'll avoid answering my simple question.

But let me be clear to avoid confusion.

1. Answer: No, I don't agree with you that preventing idol worship in the Kaaba and returning it to its monotheistic roots is a war crime. I understand you think it is, I just have a different opinion to you.

2. Question: Do you consider Israel's war crime in 1967 when it bulldozed houses adjacent to the Western Wall and expelled the Muslim homeowners, and continue to refuse to let them return, worthy of condemnation - or do you condone it, in the same way you condone the cold blooded massacre of civilians by Israelites of old?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 05, 2010

LoL - you're justifying religious discrimination based on history only (conveniently) found in the Koran. There is no evidence that the Kaaba was built by Abraham. But even if it were, other people of other religions were using it at the time the Muslims took it over - theoretically, Monotheists could have used the Kaaba who weren't Muslims.

But the Koran prohibits Pagans and, well, every one else who isn't a Muslim from using the Kaaba.

But thank you for exposing your religious bigotry.

I see you still have not answered my question though - would you condemn Israel if they were to ban Muslims from entering the Temple Mount and worship at al-Aqsa mosque?

shafique · Mar 05, 2010

Yes, I'm justifying the return to monotheism of the Kaaba. No problems in accepting and clarifying my views of what the Quran says.

Contrast this with your condoning of the slaughter of civilians by Israelites and the enslavement/rape of 32,000 virgins in the Biblical War Crimes thread.

I also note that my question (the clearly labelled one, point 2, the one that says 'question') is still unanswered.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 05, 2010

So, you wouldn't condemn the following hypothetical:

I see you still have not answered my question though - would you condemn Israel if they were to ban Muslims from entering the Temple Mount and worship at al-Aqsa mosque?

shafique · Mar 06, 2010

Why should I condemn Israel for what it hasn't done? Surely there are enough real war crimes for us to condemn?

A better analogy would be if some satan worshippers took over Al Aqsa +mosque+ and then some monotheists came along and restored the worship of one God. There too I would not consider this to be a war crime.

Now, how about my question about Israels ACTUAL war crime?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 06, 2010

A better analogy would be if some satan worshippers took over Al Aqsa +mosque+ and then some monotheists came along and restored the worship of one God. There too I would not consider this to be a war crime.

I don't think that calling Muslims Satan worshipers is not going to get you anywhere on this forum.

But you are correct that violently taking over a house of worship used by people of other religions and forbidding them to worship or step foot inside is wrong, and should be condemned.

Perhaps I was wrong in labeling you a religious bigot?

But, would you condemn Israel if they took over al-Aqsa mosque and the Temple Mount and converted these places into Synagogues?

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