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What's wrong with starting with Professor Hans Kung? We can move on to other Christian scholars later - eg

FOUAD ELIAS ACCAD grew up in Lebanon in the Greek Orthodox Church and dedicated his life to reaching out to Muslims. Fouad became on ordained pastor and was a scholar who knew ancient Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, Aramaic, and Armenian. In his later years, he was a respected hakeem, or "wise one," and unique doors were opened to him. He befriended many important people, from common peasants to sheiks in the Middle East. Pastor Accad died in 1994.

He knows Arabic, studied the Quran and came to the same conclusion as Kung.

Ergo, 'scholars' is indeed what I can quote. (Don't you feel foolish now?)

shafique wrote: I'll wait too and see whether eh ever addresses (or even acknowledges) that Christian scholars (rather than loon bloggers) have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible.

So, do you think Bob Spencer is as qualified as Professor Kung (who has indeed read the whole Quran, and is a scholar of the Bible too).

I look forward to you addressing the quotes I give from Kung. No more whining please.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, now we've established that indeed scholars of Christianity have concluded that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible, I await your comments/refutation of this simple fact.

Is it not the case that those who have studied the Quran and know the Bible intimately, and conclude the above, show that it is a failure of comprehension on your part about God not loving everyone according to the Quran? The same God, the same attributes - that is the expert opinion.

Why should we not believe them and believe loon bloggers who haven't actually read the whole Quran?

Cheers,
Shafique

LoL.

So you had to crawl through google for that second scholar.

For a while you were looking rather desperate.

I'm not really sure how that short biography of some random Christian scholar supports your view about Christian scholars.

But I see this is another classic example of loon reasoning - relying on selective quotes and loon interpretations.

When you are ready to address the conclusions of Christian scholars who have studied the Quran and concluded that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, let me know.

I asked politely for you to stop whining, but yet we only get more of the same.

Do you have any answers, or are you just going to whine?

Cheers,
Shafique

The Christian scholar, William Lane Craig, has already shown that the god of the Koran cannot be the same god as the God of the Bible.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=7421

But first, WLC explains how parents actually love rebellious children (hate the sin, not the sinner [both you and berrin have said that it is 'ok' for parents to stop loving their children]):

3. The answer to this third question is, "Yes, emphatically Yes!" You can separate the sin from the sinner. Every good parent knows this fact. Your rebellious teenage son or daughter will break your heart precisely because you love him or her despite his or her defiant and wicked behavior. If you didn't love your child, it wouldn't hurt so bad. But the fact is that you do love your children, despite their waywardness.

So WLC concludes:

I believe that this moral difference between the God of the New Testament and the God of the Qur'an is just as important as differences over the Trinity, for it strikes at the very heart of Who God is.

There is no possible way that the god of the Koran is the same of Biblical God. The two are morally and conceptually different.

Christian scholars have refuted previous apologetic claims.

So, that's a 'no' I can't actually address Kung's findings directly, but will quote someone else'.

BTW - who is this Craig fellow, and why should we believe him over Kung, and (more to the point) has he actually studied the Quran or is he relying on quotes from loon bloggers?

As I stated above, many times, Christian theologians who have studied the Quran and are well versed with the Bible have concluded that the God of the Quran and God of the Bible are the same. This punks your argument, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps that is why you haven't actually addressed this conclusion head on yet?

You've just repeated your argument why YOU think the Quran says God does not love everyone - and haven't addressed the point why Kung et al have reached a different conclusion from you. Perhaps it is because Kung et al have read and understood the Quran, rather than loon interpretations of selected quotes?

Cheers,
Shafique

So that's a 'no' I can't actually quote more than one Christian scholar who actually believes the god of the Koran and the God of the Bible are the same.

As I stated above, many times, Christian theologians who have studied the Quran and are well versed with the Bible have concluded that the God of the Quran and God of the Bible are the same.

Who are these Christian theologians ? You've quoted *ONE* theologian who actually makes this claim.

One.

When caught up in one lie, the best thing to do is not to lie some mroe.

You've just repeated your argument why YOU think the Quran says God does not love everyone - and haven't addressed the point why Kung et al have reached a different conclusion from you.

Wow, how ironic.

You haven't addressed the point why five classical Muslims scholars have reached a different conclusion from you.

Really, you must work at being this dumb.

When you get round to addressing the questions posed, let me know.

You keep going back to the selective quotes and your loon interpretations, but can't address the simple question posed: why is it that Christian theologians who have actually studied the Quran conclude that the God of the Bible is the same God of the Quran?

Just wishing these conclusions didn't exist won't make them go away!

Cheers,
Shafique

Who are these scholars ?

You've only quoted one scholar, Hans Kung - and he certainly doesn't believe that Islam is on par with Christianity.

So, the better question is why Christian, Atheist, agnostic, Jewish scholars have all rejected Islam.

I'm starting with Kung and waiting for you to address his conclusions and the fact he's actually studied the Quran vs Spencer who hasn't actually read the whole Quran but thinks he knows what Islam actually is about.

Why do you want me to quote other Christian theologians as well.. are you playing for time? I stated above that we can move on to other Christian scholars after we've dealt with Kung's conclusions.

Cheers,
Shafique

Speaking of someone playing for time, I've asked you repeatedly for quotes from 'scholars' and you have only provided one scholar who actually holds the view that the god of Islam is the same god of the Bible.

Also, I refer you back to the previous post where New Testament scholar, William Lane Craig, explains that the god of the Koran cannot be the same God of the Bible.

I refer you to my questions about Craig's knowledge of the Quran and his credentials in this regard and point out that Kung's conclusions are clear and are from a Theologian who has indeed studied the Quran.

I await your comments and trust you won't just try and find another quote to divert attention away from this simple fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

You can watch Craig yourself to see if he can hold his own against a professional Muslim apologist:

point out that Kung's conclusions are clear and are from a Theologian who has indeed studied the Quran.

Should it be too obvious to point that for every Hans Kung (so far you've only quoted one), there are hundreds, if not thousands of Christian theologians who have seriously studied Islam and reached the conclusion that the god of Islam is vastly different from the God of Christianity ?

If you're such a Hans Kung fanboi, why not address Hans Kung's views that contradict your own regarding Islam rather than only highlighting the bits where you agree with him on ?

That would be the obvious choice. Unless, of course, you're not into a serious evaluation of your religion.

Sorry, what was your argument against Kung's conclusion that God is the same?

I asked what Craig's credentials were in relation to his study of the Quran - and why we should believe his view rather than Kung's conclusion?

I never said I agree with all of Kung's views (he's a practising Catholic after all), so I guess this diversionary tactic can be brushed aside as well. However, he HAS studied the Quran and does know the Bible.

When you decide to address this point, let me know.

Cheers,
Shafique

Let me quote the argument again:

I believe that this moral difference between the God of the New Testament and the God of the Qur'an is just as important as differences over the Trinity, for it strikes at the very heart of Who God is.

A very simple argument - Koran god is morally different from New Testament God.

So, they must be different gods.

And we don't need WLC to have extensively studied the Koran (although he clearly has), no Muslim can dispute what he says about allah !

Have you any evidence that WLC has studied the Quran, or is this another one of your 'trust me, I'm a loon' moments?

As I said, I await your refutation of Kung's conclusion (who has indeed studied the Quran) and certainly knows his Bible. How do we know that WLC isn't getting his info from Spencer - perhaps the blind are leading the blind? Spencer certainly hasn't read the whole Quran.

I asked a few posts ago, why should we listen to Craig and not Kung?

Cheers,
Shafique