Islam And The West

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Re: Islam And The West Aug 29, 2010
shafique wrote:So, you view this positive post about Islam as 'westerophobic' and 'jew bashing' and 'similarities of ..nazism'.


Islam is portrayed as an universal ideology, wanting to replace Western values and especially the aggresiveness of Judaism with the sharia as universal justice. Not only that, but it should be the ONLY ideology. No personal freedom.
Positive to some not so desirable for others.

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Re: Islam And The West Aug 29, 2010
You're right - the article does say that the principles of Islam are universal and explicitly states what these principles are:

Islam is unitive and calls for unity, rejects discrimination, especially racism and rejects hegemony on the strength of wealth or power. The Muslim and even the human society as a whole should live as one interrelated society in accordance with the five principles of Islam, namely Unitarianism, egalitarianism, symmetrical recognition, social justice, and universal justice, and should serve as a cardinal law among nations. The case now is different, and that is why Islam is different.

Islam is also different because when it prescribes those principles, it assumes the character of a social philosophy rather than a religion. Islam is a movement which has its roots in authenticity, truth and justice.


I don't recognise the Islamophobe's characterisation of Islam in the above principles - therein is your problem, I guess.

Are you not just rebelling against a strawman of your own construction rather than what was written?

Which of the principles listed are you against? Authenticity? Truth? Justice? Social and universal Justice?

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Re: Islam And The West Aug 29, 2010
shafique wrote:Which of the principles listed are you against? Authenticity? Truth? Justice? Social and universal Justice?


Justice

The concept of justice embodied in Sharia is entirely different from that of secular Western law. Muslims believe the Sharia law has been revealed by God. In Islam, the laws that govern human affairs are just one facet of a universal set of laws governing nature itself. Violations of Islamic law are offenses against God and nature, including one's own human nature. Crime in Islam is sin. Whatever crime is committed, whatever punishment is prescribed for that crime in this world, one must ultimately answer to God on the Day of Judgement


source: wiki
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 29, 2010
So, what is your objection to justice as proposed by Islam?

Your quote from wiki only states that violations of justice are considered violations of the laws of God, and that all are answerable to God after death (in addition to any temporal punishments on earth).

The difference seems to be between 'secular' and 'God revealed' laws. But where is the difference in justice between God's laws and secular western laws? Why are you objecting to 'justice'?

As I suspected above, your objections stem from a strawman of your own construction - for the article talks of universal justice and other noble principles.

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 29, 2010
Here's a good link comparing the concepts of Justice in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 1877822523

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 29, 2010
My problem with Islamic justice (sharia)?

Amputation for theft for starters:

Islamic_Justice.jpg
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 29, 2010
No, I didn't ask about your straw man - I asked specifically what objections you had to justice as a concept in Islam and how it differed from Justice in say secular Western societies?

(BTW - what has the photo got to do with Islamic teachings? You really shouldn't believe everything you read on loon websites - trying looking at snopes.com to save yourself embarrassment:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/crushboy.asp

Image
It was all a performance/hustle for money, with the boy unharmed afterwards.)

This is symptomatic of the whole Islamophobia argument - selective, hysterical and innacurate!

And I had another look at the article - I couldn't see where it was talking about your objections (which seem to stem from Islamophobic websites rather than reality).

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 29, 2010
Next to amputations, the homophobe stance of Islamic justice is an objection. And as specified before condoning wife beating. Inequality is a problem for me, between men and women and Muslims and non-believers....etc etc.
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
Ever notice how shafique is always the first to accuse others of getting their information of Islam from 'Islamophobic/missionary' websites yet repeatedly has shown that his understanding and knowledge of (or more appropriately, lack thereof) other religions comes from the abysmally shoddy 'scholarship' of Muslim versions of websites he accuses others of crawling through ?

Most people are too grown up and mature to call other members names such as 'loon' or 'Christianophobe' at the first whiff another poster tends to disagree with them on certain 'hot' topic issues as religion or Israel.

For instance, it would be just plain strange for a non-Muslim to call shafique a Christiano-phobe for linking to a site that peddles false information on Christianity, as shafique has managed to do on this thread.

Actually, shafique has already spilled an impressive amount of ink explaining to FD that the article Berrin copy/pasted is not biased towards Judaism or the West. (You know, FD. You should know your place on the plantation. It should become apparent by now that shafique knows best.)

Of course, loons like shafique never fail to disappoint. Their own high standards for others to research Islam from the 'correct' sources is never applied to themselves. Hence, any old Muslim missionary or DOT com website is a sufficient source when it comes to other religions.

And how do you know if a website is 'Islamophobic' ? Easy, a Muslim will tell you if the website is 'Islamophobic'.

And how do you know if a website on Christianity or Judaism is a good source for information ? Easy, a Muslim will tell you if the website is a suitable site for information on Judaism or Christianity.

This sort of master-knows-best/slave mentality is still apparently strong in Islam from the times when Muslims dictated to Christians and Jews how they needed to behave.

We sho be jess soo happy on Massa's plantation. Spleshly when we knowed our place.
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
eh - it is a very good bet that you didn't read the original article and hence you're just repeating your prejudices against Islam and Muslims, without reference to what this thread is about.

It is a typical reaction that once a lie has been exposed, the natural reaction from you guys is to launch personal attacks. I'm not sure what thread has been reading, but challenging you on your bizare view that the original article is anti-semitic or linked to Nazism hasn't taken up 'much ink' at all.

eh - you are the one that seems to be a slave to the Islamophobic view of Islam, damn the evidence to the contrary. Doesn't the hatred eat you up after a while?

But what is fascinating to see is that you guys aren't even ashamed when falsehoods you present as truths are exposed.

eh believed a totally fabricated account (fabricated on JihadWatch) of an Imam condoning rape was true and not a peep when this was exposed:
dubai-politics-talk/fox-news-let-down-t42289.html

When the historical fact is of Israel breaking the Gaza truce, you both go into denial:
dubai-politics-talk/gaza-truce-who-broke-t40269.html

And we have above an urban loon-myth about Sharia being barbaric and a kids arm being run over 'An 8 year old caught stealing bread in a market of Iran is punished in a public place, all in the name of Islam' - when in fact the whole story is a malicious lie. But as it fits in with loon ideals, you guys lap it up.

And then you react to being exposed by name-calling.

Shame. You should go back and read the article and hang your heads in shame.

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
I apologies if the picture is wrong. But if the argument now is that amputations are not a part of sharia, than I am flabbergasted. There are enough other examples of amputations. Islamic juctice, sharia, is cruel and barbaric in my opinion.

In another article the same writer states:

The Jews, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave.


After his jew-bashing in the OP, above anti-semitic remarks are no surprise. As nazism the writer blames the major problems of the world on the jews.
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
You seem to have read a different article than the one posted - I couldn't see where he was blaming the major problems of the world on Jews.

No problems about the picture - we all make mistakes. And I have no issue with people viewing the harsh punishments allowed in Islam as cruel - amputation as an extreme punishment is indeed a most severe punishment, as is the ultimate sanction of the death penalty. I don't see these punishments as part of a system of justice as in themselves wrong - I would argue that it would be unjust to society to not have severe punishments for the severest crimes.

Your picture seemed to trivialise and sensationalise a small part of the Justice system - and if this is what you thought Islam taught, then you are completely right to be so against Islamic justice.

But again, I didn't see this as a prominent feature in the article at all.

Your opposition doesn't seem to be about what was written, but what you already conceive Islam's teachings to be.

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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
shafique wrote:You seem to have read a different article than the one posted


Correct, as I stated it is from another article from the same writer.

shafique wrote:I couldn't see where he was blaming the major problems of the world on Jews.


Lets try again:

The Jews, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave.


shafique wrote: I would argue that it would be unjust to society to not have severe punishments for the severest crimes.


A society without amputations for theft is unjust? What is seen as justice obviously differs. What Islam sees as justice is not perceived by me as justice. It seems now, that it is forced upon others to see sharia as just.

shafique wrote:Your picture seemed to trivialise and sensationalise a small part of the Justice system - and if this is what you thought Islam taught, then you are completely right to be so against Islamic justice.


Islam also teaches homophobia and lashes (or is that stoning?) for the fornicators/adulterers amongst others It also teached inequality between men and women.
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
Ok, so you have introduced a new quote but no reference.. ok. Can you please let me have a reference so I can check out your quote and then comment when I've read it in full?

But why introduce a new quote when we are discussing the article that was written? I repeat there's nothing in the main article that smacks of anti-semitism or anything like Nazism. :?

As for justice - yes, I think a society with a very harsh punishment for persistent theives will be more just than one that, all other things being equal, has less harsh punishments for theft. Justice means that there is a balance between the rights of offenders and the rights of society. I think it is a value judgement whether you think thieves and society are better off with the offenders locked away or subject to the amputation of a hand for the most severe offenders.

Which serves as a greater deterrance is also a matter of judgement - but I'd argue you'd have fewer thefts (all other things being equal) where the punishment is severer.

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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
I think I found the quote, it is from 'How Holy is Palestine':

http://www.isesco.org.ma/english/public ... ne/CH1.php

Reading through, I really can't see why you think stating that historically the facts about segregation speak for themselves. I mean 100,000 Israelis took the streets to protest in FAVOUR of segregation along racial lines in a girls school, and this week Haaretz is talking about Jewish-apartheid roads.

You're seeing anti-semitism where there isn't any, and yet you portrayed the extract you produced as indicative of him 'blaming Jews' for most of the problems in the world. :shock:

Oh dear.

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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
Let's see the quote in context:

Segregationism

Islam’s tolerant and reverential attitude towards other religions, as shown by the reverence granted by Islam to the holy places and sites of Judaism and Christianity, should be regarded as a proof of tolerance and universalism. Islam is truly universalist and tolerant in its basic commandments. Its policy is to live and let live. It never advocated segregationism, conformity, compulsory conversion, colonialism, oppression of religious or ethnic minorities, or racialism. In contrast, it advocated egalitarianism, peaceful coexistence and justice, especially social justice. It never condoned injustice, aggression, despotism, dictatorship, tyranny or terrorism in its various forms, visible and invisible. The recent accusation of terrorism, levelled against Islam, is not fair. It is an act of flying in the face of truth, and an act of prejudice on the part of an interested party.

The tolerant and reverential attitude referred to above should have been requited by a symmetrical and equitable attitude. This has not been the case. Islam has consistently been under attack for the past two centuries. Islam is more sinned against than sinning. It is not a strange feature for Islam but to be peaceful for it has always been so. If it occasionally shows signs of revolt here and there, it is because something unfair is being done against it. Islam’s acts are purely defensive, and not aggressive. Aggression is unjust and strongly condemned by Islam. Therefore, Islam may be justly adjudged as pacifist and ecumenistic. But what can one say about the onslaught on Islam in the Balkans, in Cyprus, in Palestine, in Kashmir, in the Phillipines and elsewhere, where Muslims are denied the right to self-determination and accused on top of that of being terrorists?

Segregationism, whether religious or ethnic, is anathema in Islam, but has been practiced by Judaism in the past and at present, both in religion and in worldly matters. The Jews, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave.

The latest manifestation of this spirit is to select certain countries and call them at will “axes of evil”, as George Bush, president of the United States, has called Iraq, Iran and North Korea. President Reagan before him had called the Soviet Union the “focus of evil”. But where was the “focus of good”, and where is now the “axis of good”? Is evil here only whimsical or is it factual? This is divisiveness.

But one would like to ask in this connection where does this division of the world’s peoples into Evil and Good come from? The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles.

This doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip. The Gentiles now are the Muslims in Afghanistan, in India, in Iran, in Iraq, in Libya, in the Sudan and, above all, in Palestine. The world, especially in the West, seems to be insensitive to the cruelties perpetrated against the Muslims in Afghanistan where they are forced in millions to leave their homes and live in ramshackle tents, dying of starvation and exposure, in Iraq where Muslims are bombarded and have been under siege for more than ten years, with as consequence a high rate of infantile mortality and in Palestine where Muslims are being killed, as Gentiles, like sheep, by organized military campaigns with all sorts of deadly weapons. The unarmed Muslims there are the terrorists. Muslims in Iran are on the list for the same unjust punishment. Perhaps North Korea will be spared, because, I suppose, it is not Muslim. This is how matters stand in the modern world: no justice and no morality.
..
The situation in Palestine, against Arabs in general and Muslims in particular, is an epitome of the situation in the world, where segregationism, subjugation, spoliation, expulsion, assassination are openly practiced, while the world watches, unable or unwilling to do anything.


So, in a piece entitled 'How Holy is Palestine' we have the above - the main topic is Islam, Palestine and Israel.. and in this context the above is hardly anti-semitic, or blames Jews for all the troubles in the world.. (in fact the section on discrimination doesn't mention Jews)

(Thanks for pointing out another interesting article though FD)

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
So this quote is not considered anti-semitic:

The Jews, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave


The writer must have forgotten for a moment to use Zionists instead of jews.

But let me rephrase:


Muslims, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave


Islam is dividing mankind into master and slave and the whole world is suffering from it!It is aggressive and dangerous!


Yep and sharia with amputations, homophobia and lashes for the adulteres is considers justice. Allrightly then...
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
In context the guy makes a very good point - the world is indeed being divided into 'them and us' - either you are with us or against us. We have 'clashes of civilisations' etc.

Rather than replace Jews with 'Muslims' why not put in 'Apartheid-era Boers' - that would be more apt, as I pointed out this is actually based on evidence.

Just this week, as I said before, Haaretz talks of Jewish-Apartheid roads, not so long ago 100,000 protestors in Israel marched in favour of segregation.

Indeed his point is that Islam is inclusive and not segregationalist, whereas fundamentally Judaism has a concept of Gentiles and Jews (extremist Jews don't welcome converts, for example).

So, you're trying desperately to spin an observation as an anti-semetic rant, but unfortunately the full context above stands in evidence against your view.

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
I can see doctrine of the extermination of Rabenu Moshe Ben Maimon having influence in this rabbi fellow..
http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-pri ... 2C2.218%2C

A good exapmle of racist segregation in israeli schools..
http://www.uruknet.info/?colonna=m&p=69 ... ize=1&hd=0
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
So it is about jews.

The whole world is suffering because of them (the jews). They (jews) are aggresive and dangerous. This according to the writer Hasan S. Karmi and poster Shafique claims that in context he makes a good point.
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
:roll:
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
So it is about jews.
The whole world is suffering because of them (the jews). They (jews) are aggresive and dangerous. This according to the writer Hasan S. Karmi and poster Shafique claims that in context he makes a good point.


Soory FD but you fail to analyze what you read...If you read what i posted you can see that the problem is not the person itself, it's the ideology they follow that shapes their both internal and foreign policies towards humanity..

The problem is not the physical human jew..The problem is what shapes human's minds and behaviour!...
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
Berrin, I already saw enough of the filth you are posting and how you think about jews.

This could have come right out of the mounth of, the by the mufti beloved, Adolf or the KKK:

The Jews, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave.


And it is considered as a good point when placed in the right context by some forum members. :idea:
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
Berrin, I already saw enough of the filth you are posting and how you think about jews.


No, the jews are humans, we have common creator, I can't hate them for that reason as I would be questionable against my hatred directed to the individual rather than their opinion and behaviour..
I have the right to criticize the logic for the tought that creates opinions and reflects to behaviour and actions..

Filth..according to who? you better explain why you think they are filth, so that we have a say in it and come to conclusion all together.
But I noticed that when we have a say in something in support of our argument than you get annoyed, unable to reconcile, start claiming of something else irrelevant to the subject....

This could have come right out of the mounth of, the by the mufti beloved, Adolf or the KKK:

The Jews, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave.


Again you're quick to label...Will you ever start to think , why such accused mufti thinks they are segregationists, aggressive and dangerous?. He can only lay his findings on solid grounds that is evidential.. If they hadn't been segregtionists they couldn't possibly be prejudicist,schizophrenic, hypocrite etc... don't you think?
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
Berrin wrote:Again you're quick to label...Will you ever start to think , why such accused mufti thinks they are segregationists, aggressive and dangerous?


He explained himself:

“Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got from Berlin was: ‘The Jews are yours.’”
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
Hold on there is my bad reading and mistake..I thought you addressed the writer in Shafique's quote to be the mufti..

Your quote from hitler loved mufti has nothing to do with orginal quote from Shafique..

That mufti was the agent of the British, opposing ottoman rule under many lies and rumours told them..…Obviously british needed to pamper his ago and benefit from his grief to allow jews wage war against Palestinians to complete the agenda in ME…I wonder if he'd got half the promise he was given!..
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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
Berrin, the quote is from the same author as the OP, but is from another article. It could have been from hitler or the kkk though, same ideology. Shafique wrote that he makes a very good point. As a side remark i said the mufti loved hitler, as they were big buddies.
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
:roll: :roll:

Your a very thin line away from 'he's brown skinned and has a beard and therefore wants to keeellll all Jews' :shock:

But hey, you've got to justify equating a positive post about Islam with Nazism, and kudos on not backing down in the face of exposure of your selective quotes.

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Re: Islam and the West Aug 30, 2010
It could have been from hitler or the kkk though, same ideology. .

you shouldn't jump to immediate conclusion to label as filth..
It's also your duty to start to think why so many people think that their actions are segregationists, aggressive and dangerous..The fact that this issue hasn't been solved for the last 60 years shows that both the west and israelies have no respect to both civil and moral rights of humans..Where is your freedom?
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Re: Islam And The West Aug 30, 2010
Berrin, to be fair to FD in none of his posts has he given any indication that he actually read either the first article or the second one he quoted.

Indeed, I asked him whether he had even read the first article when he made the slur about Nazism. When challenged he went and found the other quote (which he gave without a reference) and that turns out to be out of context too - so perhaps he didn't read the second article and just searched for 'Jewish'.

So, the next step is to argue that because FD 'thinks' the author is anti-semitic, therefore he is like Adolf Hitler or the Mufti. I guess he had to quote the Mufti when I dug up the following information about the Karmi (which makes FD's imagined anti-semitism in the articles all the more pathetic):

Karmi, searching for a quiet and respectable family house, was advised by a colleague to take one in Golders Green, well known as a neighbourhood of Jewish refugees from Hitler. This was perhaps less incongruous than it seems; the family found a Jewish GP as they had had in Jerusalem. His children made Jewish schoolfriends. Karmi would later tell his daughter that at the time he blamed British betrayal more than the Jews for the dispossession of the Palestinians. Ghada Karmi makes the point in her memoir In Search of Fatima that despite their profound and irrevocable sense of grievance against Zionism and about 1948, the "gut anti-Semitism" the family encountered among some of their English neighbours was "alien to us".


You've got to hand it to him, it's an ingenious argument (can't quite make the anti-semitic label stick on the first article, try a selective quote and then quote the Mufti!!!) - all to justify a pre-conceived Islamophobic notion of Islam.

But the real reason for the hatred is the audacity you had to quote someone saying something positive about Islam!

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Shafique
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