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event horizon · Dec 13, 2011

The quote on pg9 of this thread does say that the incidents of violence against women in the British Asian community is lower than the national average - i.e. lower than the overall average rate.

Funny, I didn't dispute that.

As for incidents of violence in Latin American immigrant communities - just do a Google search and you'll find the research in the subject.

Nope, you made the claim, you support it.

Your last question sounds like you believe race is a primary cause of criminality - more than social factors.

I don't recall suggesting a cause for criminality in my last post. I encourage you to go back and highlight the part of my post where you think I made any suggestion for criminality. I'm guessing you're playing the race card and making fictitious statements of other posters after losing an argument.

My last point sounds more like I poured cold water over your comments on poverty and prison rates. I'm actually not aware of a correlation between violent crime and poverty, but if there is one, it doesn't explain why US prisons have more black than white inmates when there are more poor whites in the US than blacks.

Since you can't address the fact that there are more poor whites in the US than blacks - blowing your view out of the water, then I suppose you're only left with racist smear allegations.

Just try to stay on topic this time - the facts are that there are more poor whites than blacks in the US but fewer whites in prison than blacks.

Facts vs loon beliefs.

shafique · Dec 13, 2011

Sorry, I didn't actually see any facts in your post. Were you really referring to your statements as 'loon beliefs'?

This thread is actually about a supposed increase in honour killings in the UK, and the original article talks about 2,823 honour crimes in the UK - and does not talk about the religion of the criminals.

The facts show that 3 million violent crimes against women in the UK, and the same organisation that produced the stats in the OP say that 1 in 3 honour crimes are carried out by non-Muslims.

Those that are arguing that religion is responsible for the honour crimes have not provided any experts to back up their views. I have seen that there are indeed Islamophobic bloggers who agree with them, but so far no real experts.

As for discussing your right-wing theories over criminality and the US jail population, I'll be happy to indulge you in a separate thread. Just bring your evidence, and do at least some research.

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Dec 13, 2011

Sorry, I haven't provided any theories over criminality. I suppose this is why you did not do as I requested and highlight which part of my previous post where you think I suggested a cause for criminality but instead repeated your lie.

As for the connection to Islam and honor killings, I made a convenient bullet pointed list of arguments showing a connection.

Among them are honor killings being condoned in Islamic nations, such as Iran, where husbands have a legal right to murder their adulterous wives or where the punishments for family members who murder their relatives for "sinful" behavior is condoned.

I take no issue with your statistic - so far with out an official source - that a tiny minority carries out a majority of honor crimes in the UK. That actually proves one of the points I was making in drawing a connection between Islam and honor killings.

shafique · Dec 13, 2011

Well, if you want to discuss criminality etc in the USA, let's do so in another thread.

As for your (and herve) theory that Islam is a cause of honour killings - I repeat that I've only seen this theory supported by some Islamophobic bloggers. The experts on the subject cited in this thread all say religion is not a cause.

It is a mighty stretch to give us your interpretation of Iranian law and then use that to support your view that Islam condones honour killings. A mother or sister or brother carrying out an honour crime gets the full weight of the law, a father or grandfather carrying out the same murder has the sentencing passed on to the relatives of the victim.

I fully understand your belief of the connection between Islam and honour killings. I just don't see the evidence.

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Dec 13, 2011

shafique wrote:Well, if you want to discuss criminality etc in the USA, let's do so in another thread.

Interesting that you brought up criminality but now don't want to discuss it.

You should note the fact that I don't want to discuss criminality but your lie concerning your claim that I proposed theories on the causes of criminality.

So, again, where did I propose a cause for criminality in my original response to your comments on the US's black prison population?

shaifque wrote:The experts on the subject cited in this thread all say religion is not a cause.

The experts I've seen all say the primary terrorist threat to the US and EU is Islamic terrorism.

But anyways, my bullet pointed list has not been addressed, either from yourself or the experts.

shafique wrote:It is a mighty stretch to give us your interpretation of Iranian law and then use that to support your view that Islam condones honour killings.

Iranian law is based on Islam. Therefore, it is not a stretch that Islam condones honor crimes if that is part of Iranian law.

shafique wrote:A mother or sister or brother carrying out an honour crime gets the full weight of the law

No, not for many honor crimes where the victim would be a "mahdur ud-dam".

shafique wrote:a father or grandfather carrying out the same murder has the sentencing passed on to the relatives of the victim.

Once again, fathers are sentenced under Taz'ir section of Iran's penal system. Try reading the article to learn that only judges sentence people for Taz'ir crimes, although families may pardon the accused, they have no role in the sentencing.

shafique wrote:I fully understand your belief of the connection between Islam and honour killings. I just don't see the evidence.

That's means very little from someone who is functionally illiterate.

shafique · Dec 14, 2011

Thanks for sharing your beliefs again. I continue to await any expert that agrees with you and herve that Islam is responsible for honour killings. Do you have anyone who isn't an Islamophobic blogger that agrees with this view? If so, please present the evidence.

As for discussing criminality in the USA etc - as I said before, I'll be happy to compare your views with the evidence - just start a new thread and then lets see whose views are based on facts.

In the mean time, the fact still remains that in the UK honour crimes represent less than 1% of violent crimes against women (3 million a year in total) and that the organisation cited in the OP says 1 in 3 of these are carried out by non-Muslims. Experts quoted have said these crimes are not condoned by any religions. Some Islamophobic bloggers want to believe otherwise. I'll stick to facts.

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Dec 14, 2011

shafique wrote:. Do you have anyone who isn't an Islamophobic blogger that agrees with this view? If so, please present the evidence.

You want to believe the hype that Islam does not condone honor killings but the evidence cannot be disputed.

I can't make this any clearer to you, I believe the fact that the Islamic Republic of Iran, based on Islamic law, condones honor killings - where husbands may legally murder their adulterous wives and where family members receive different and less severe forms of Iran's system of justice if the family members they honor killed were "mahdur ud-dam".

There's no disputing these facts and the article makes them very clear.

Do you have any more comments on the Iranian legal system condoning honor crimes or any of the other bullet points you keep avoiding?

shafique wrote:As for discussing criminality in the USA etc

I'm asking you to back up your claim that I proposed any theory on criminality in my first response to your initial point on criminality in the US.

You lied and I'm asking you to acknowledge your lie and retract your statement.

Where did I propose any theory on criminality in the US anywhere in this thread?

shafique wrote:and that the organisation cited in the OP says 1 in 3 of these are carried out by non-Muslims.

So less than 5% of the population carries out 66% of honor crimes? Again, thanks for reinforcing the point that there must be some aspect of Islam to account for the fact Muslims carry out far more honor crimes than their numbers in the general population.

shafique · Dec 14, 2011

Less that 5% of the UK population carry out less than 0.6% of the violent crimes against women (3 million a year) that represent honour killings. Yes.

But the stats on how many crimes against women in the UK is one thing, your theory that Islam is behind the 0.6% of the crimes is one you have yet to prove. It appears that only Islamophobic bloggers agree with your linkage.

Cheers,

Shafique

herve · Dec 14, 2011

2,823 incidents of Honour Crime in 2010 resulting a 47% increase in just 12 Months in the UK alone, the perpetrators overwhelmingly muslum.

shafique · Dec 14, 2011

herve - did you manage to find out how many of the 2,823 incidents were committed by Muslims? How about the number of Muslims in the 3 million total crimes against women in the UK - of which therefor honour crimes are less than 1% of the total?

The original article does not mention Muslims or any other religion at all. The same organisation that did provide the stats say that 1 in 3 honour crimes in the UK are not carried out by Muslims, and doesn't agree with you that Islam is to blame. Only Islamophobic bloggers seem to share your theory.

Cheers,

Shafique

Bethsmum · Dec 14, 2011

We aren't debating the total crimes against women in the UK, but the total number of honour crimes recorded in the UK and the fact that they have increased by 47% in one year alone.

The UK press is not allowed to state the religion of the perpetrators. When the report was discussed on the BBC, the only people who were interviewed concerning this worrying statistic were Muslim MPs and Muslim womens groups.

This would point a normal thinking person to believe that it's a problem within the Muslim community. That's unless you think it's a press conspiracy of course.

event horizon · Dec 14, 2011

shafique wrote:Less that 5% of the UK population carry out less than 0.6% of the violent crimes against women (3 million a year) that represent honour killings. Yes.

Now you're simply lying.

The 3,000 incidents of honor crimes are simply that. They don't refer to all incidents of violence against women by the Muslim community or any other. I also assume honor violence numbers could include violence against children since Muslims unlike other faith groups extend their honor crimes to all members of a family.

shafique wrote:But the stats on how many crimes against women in the UK is one thing, your theory that Islam is behind the 0.6% of the crimes is one you have yet to prove.

You probably should address my bullet points a few pages ago.

It appears I've found your clerics who agree honor crimes are Islamic - it's actually the LAW in the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Husbands may legally murder their wives, family members who honor kill their other family members for alleged sins they are accused of committing receive special treatment from the judiciary.

The qadis, clerics, mullahs, jurists and doctors of Islamic law are all present in Iran and perform a function in the passing and enforcement of this law.

shafique · Dec 14, 2011

There are 3 million plus acts of violence against women in the UK, of which less than 1% constitute these honour crimes. Of these 1 in 3 are carried out by non-Muslims.

No expert you've quoted agrees with you that Islam is linked to the 0.6% of crimes against women in the UK. On the contrary experts clearly state that religion does not condone these crimes.

Iranian law doesn't help you - especially when it appears you were relying on headlines rather than the details. This thread is about the UK and an article which does not cite Muslims/Islam or any other religion.

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Dec 15, 2011

Accusing someone else of relying on headlines when the accuser was informed and corrected of his mistaken beliefs is a bit rich.

The fact is that, as the article points out, husbands may legally murder their adulterous wives and family members honor killing their relatives over alleged sinful behaviors, especially if they carry the death penalty in Iran, are tried under a different section of Islamic penal code, one that is more lenient. And that is what the article makes clear.

shafique · Dec 15, 2011

The article in question does not mention Islam/Muslims or any other religion. Only Islamophobic bloggers seem to be the ones who share this belief of yours that Islam is the reason. Your problem is that the same organisation states that 1 in 3 honour crimes in the UK are carried out by non-Muslims.

Specious references to Iranian penal codes won't help you explain that away.

Perhaps you should spend more time finding at least one real expert who believes in what the Islamophobic bloggers are telling you. It may save you from further embarrassment. I mean Islamophobic blogs made an explicit reference to the Iranian penal code - and when we looked into it, we found that it wasn't as they said.

But pray tell, what has Iranian law (and your interpretation of it) got to do with the UK honour crimes - especially the 1 in 3 by non-Muslims? I presume you agree it has nothing to do with the 99% of the 3 million violent crimes against women in the UK which aren't honour crimes?

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Dec 15, 2011

So Iranian Islamic law does not decriminalize husbands who honor kill their adulterous wives?

Hmmm....

In case you may have forgotten:

*Honor killings are carried out by religious Muslims, not uneducated or poor.

* Honor killings carried out by Muslims are carried out for religious reasons - a family member is accused of committing apostasy or having premarital relationships of some sort - all strictly forbidden under Islam.

*Actual honor killings in Hinduism are rare and Sikhs (a religion that is a hybrid of Islam and Hinduism) honor killings seem to be limited to wives, unlike Muslim honor killings where children are just as vulnerable

* Honor killings are universal in the Muslim world - all Muslim peoples, regardless of culture, geography and so on are known to commit honor killings.

* Islamic Law in several Islamic nations condones or has condoned honor killings. The Iranian Mullahs would be happy to testify that they condone honor killing violence. It isn't secular statesmen in Iran who make and enforce the law in the Islamic Republic.

* The law of retaliation in Islam provides convenient loopholes for honor killers. Honor killers in Pakistan are usually set free after the family of the victim (the same family as the murderer) requests a pardon. If Muslim society is generally supportive of honor crimes under an Islamic legal system, then it is virtually impossible for the courts to punish the perpetrators.

* Muslims, a religious minority in the world, carry out a majority of honor killings.

shafique · Dec 15, 2011

Why do you think listing a set of beliefs that only Islamophobic bloggers seem to believe will convince anyone? Still waiting to hear one expert that agrees with you.

But, may I ask yet again, what does your interpretation of Iranian law have to do with the honour crimes in the UK? Certainly, it has nothing to do with the 3 million crimes against women, of which less than 1% are honour crimes.

Can you not provide at least one expert that shares your belief? On pg 1 of this thread, the experts quoted explicitly say you are wrong to link the crimes to religion.

Cheers,

shafique

event horizon · Dec 16, 2011

The Islamic experts in Iran disagree - hence honor killings are legal or condoned.

shafique · Dec 16, 2011

What has your view of Iranian law got to do with the honour crimes in the UK? You're losing it eh.

3 million crimes against women in the UK, of which less than 1% are honour crimes. Of these, 1 in 3 are by non-Muslims. Why are you bringing in your interpretation of Iranian law? :roll:

Could it be because you can't produce ONE expert who agrees with your theory that you got from Islamophobic bloggers? The only experts on the subject quoted in this thread all say religion has nothing to do with these crimes.

Cheers,

Shafique

gertrude · Dec 16, 2011

this trolling is non sense, everyone knows , and experts confirm that islam is the main jutification for honor murders, in the UK, France, Belgium, Pakistan, Iran....anywhere.
There was abundant evidence in this thread, links, and facts to support that islam is the main jutification for honor murders.
Repeating the opposite over and over 200 hundred times, does not change these facts.

shafique · Dec 16, 2011

What experts are those gertrude? (serious question) Surely you're not confusing what Islamophobic bloggers claim with the truth?

Surely there must be ONE expert out there you can quote that agrees with you? The experts quoted in this thread all say religion has nothing to do with these crimes.

Cheers,
Shafique

gertrude · Dec 16, 2011

The best of all, it s called the Kuran.

shafique · Dec 16, 2011

As I thought - no expert at all, only what some Islamophobic bloggers want to believe. Sad really.

But thanks for proving my point.

Cheers,

Shafique

gertrude · Dec 16, 2011

what is the definition of "islamophobic blogger" are not they just telling the truth about Islam.

Your point? you have no point, that s the point. People still don't trust Muslims, still reject Muslims, still dislike Muslims because of their appalling standards.

shafique · Dec 16, 2011

An Islamophobic blogger is someone with no credentials other than their hatred of Islam. An expert on the subject would be any one of the experts quoted in this thread - such as those on pg 1 which say honour crimes have nothing to do with any religion.

Note that no one here has actually quoted ANY expert in favour of your views - I've just made the point that the only people I could find who agreed with your theory are Islamophobic bloggers. You guys haven't actually named any expert at all who agrees with your views.

Not one.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Dec 16, 2011

Then can you tell me;

1, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder?

shafique · Dec 16, 2011

Dillon, please stop trolling. I have explicitly dealt with both your questions at least twice in this thread.

The question that you have to answer is why you cannot produce ONE expert that believes in your theory that Islam is responsible for honour crimes. The only experts quoted in this thread explicitly say religion is not a cause of honour crimes - and the statistics of of honour crimes in the UK (less than 1% of the 3 million crimes against women in the UK, and of which 1 in 3 are by non-Muslims) aren't really in dispute.

What is in dispute is your theory that Islam is a cause. Is there any expert you can name that agrees with this view?

Cheers,

Shafique

Dillon · Dec 16, 2011

shafique wrote:Dillon, please stop trolling. I have explicitly dealt with both your questions at least twice in this thread.

Shafique, Please stop trolling as I have also explicitly dealt with both your responses at least twice in this thread. if you can be bothered please go and read the back posts!

shafique · Dec 16, 2011

Can you provide ONE expert that believes in your theory that Islam is a cause of honour crimes? The experts provided all say religion is not responsible.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Dec 16, 2011

More repetition, it's all been discussed before Shaf and nothing's changed! Accept it move on and live with it!

--- Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:03 am ---

herve wrote:Regardless of the country where muslums live (in the free world), they are much more likely to end up as criminals.Statistics show that the percentage of incarcerated muslums is ALWAYS higher than the percentage of muslums living in that country.In the US for instance, muslums make 1 or 2 % of the population, but 7.2% of the prison population is muslum.

In England and Wales, 3% of the population are Muslim and so are 12% of the Prison’s, this figure is also from 2008 and if trends continued, 15% are estimated currently.

In Belgium, 2% of the population are Muslim and so are 16% of the Prison’s.

In the Netherlands, 5.5% of the population are Muslim and so are 20% of adults and 26% of Juveniles incarcerated.

In France, where there are no official figures, it is estimated that from a 7.6% Muslim population, between 50% and 70% of the Prison population are Muslim.

I see there have been more Denial excuses of poverty and conversion, poverty affects all and is not discriminatory, conversion is conversion, if an individual converts to Islam is he a lesser Muslim than one born into Islam? after all the statistics are about the current prison population.

There may have been a marginally less percentage of a Muslim population in Europe’s prisons at the onset of incarceration but let’s face it? There’s plenty of room for error and manipulation isn’t there?

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