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shafique wrote:No, those are just crooks. The Tribals are those who think the Taliban are too soft!

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, you lost me. What does that have to do with Australia stopping forced marriages??

Sorry Bora - I was replying to gertrude's post about the proposed change in the law in the UK to outlaw forced marriages. The 'Tribals' that I said won't be happy referred to those in the UK who think forced marriages are ok - contrary to what Islam teaches.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok don't really like to get involved with the Politics forum or do any major googling but just had a quick look at forced marriages in the UK. "The majority of these seem to be within the Pakistani community" a telegraph article said. The BBC said that the FMU reported up to 65% of all known cases involve pakistanis. Just by looking at the articles for the UK would seem to imply that the majority of forced marriages (at least in the UK) are from the Muslim community. It also states that it is against Islam to subject anyone to a forced marriage and that each party must consent. Personally I think forced marriages are abhorrent we should all be free to make our own mistakes.

Patience - yes, there is indeed a problem amongst some Pakistani families in the UK. I made specific reference to this in my first post. I don't think it should be over-blown though, in terms of numbers, but it is serious and abhorent for each case. Forced is different from arranged - and Islam requires consent for marriage.

I'll have to check with my wife if I'm free to make my own mistakes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Here is a recent Newsweek article - one Sikh woman tells the story of forced marriage for her and the other daughters in her family. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... s-too.html

Here are examples of forced marriage around the world, compiled by The Forced Marriage Prevention Initiative, http://forcedmarriage.wordpress.com/case-examples/

And there are cases of men being forced into marriage because they are gay or have a disability and the family wants a wife to take over the care-giving duties - examples from the UK's ForcedMarriage.net, http://www.forcedmarriage.net/casestudy1.html

Forced marriage is a cultural problem and for purposes of family honour (so kids don't get a bad reputation for sleeping around with boy/girlfriends and producing children out of wedlock), strategic reasons like family or business alliances, covering up a child's hom.o.se.xuality, pawning the care of a sick/disabled/mentally ill child onto a spouse. Most definitely religion is used as an excuse to get a child to comply with the marriage. However, I challenge anyone to find a religion that states that underage boys and girls must be forced into marriage or they are breaking the rules of their God.

I'm all for it, this law should have come into effect a long time back and more countries should adopt it. And K is also correct just like honour killings not matter how much the phobes would like it to be its not a muslim "thing" Its a cultral thing and indeed a highly shamefull and criminal act.

kanelli wrote: However, I challenge anyone to find a religion that states that underage boys and girls must be forced into marriage or they are breaking the rules of their God.

Mulsims follow the teachings of a man who married a 6 years old girl, and had $ex with with her when she turned 9.
Therefore one can tell Islam is a pretty strong endorsment of forced marriage and statutory rape.
Unless you find it normal for a man to have $ex with an underage girl.
By any mean, this man in the West ,would serv a long prison term, don't you agree?

Loons really are gullible.

However, I am never failed to be amused when they start repeating their spin on Islam and political marriages in the past (whilst remaining silent on exactly the same marriages in Europe centuries after the Prophet's marriages) .

shafique wrote:Someone correct me, but didn't Richard II of England marry a child - IIRC Isabel of France was only 7 or 8 when they were married. This was a few centuries after Islam - so I wouldn't be surprised if the imaginative loon posters blamed Islam for this marriage!

Edit: It seems the Romans were also at it - the custom in the Eastern Roman ('Byzantine') empire from the late 12th century:

Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine.

http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

dubai-chat/cops-spying-emiratis-t47332-165.html

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:However, I am never failed to be amused when they start repeating their spin on Islam and political marriages in the past (whilst remaining silent on exactly the same marriages in Europe centuries after the Prophet's marriages) .

shafique wrote:Someone correct me, but didn't Richard II of England marry a child - IIRC Isabel of France was only 7 or 8 when they were married. This was a few centuries after Islam - so I wouldn't be surprised if the imaginative loon posters blamed Islam for this marriage!

Edit: It seems the Romans were also at it - the custom in the Eastern Roman ('Byzantine') empire from the late 12th century:

Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine.Cheers,
Shafique

Can you quote anybody, TODAY, who boast and worship TODAY Richard II Baldwin III or Alexius?
Instead there are a billions thugs outhere, including you, who worship a guy who did marry a child.
So Mr shafique do you condemn the practice to marry a 6 y o girl and have s.ex with her? Y N ?
You are trapped, because if you don't you a perv, and if you do, you worship a perv.

I don't worship any man. I think you're confused (as usual) caps.

But you're right - not many Europeans marry 7 year olds today. But they did. How many Muslims do you know who today follow Richard II's example? Why did he marry a 7 year old?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: How many Muslims do you know who today follow Richard II's example? Why did he marry a 7 year old?

Cheers,
Shafique

You not confused, you a hypocrite, no muslims follow Richard II, of course, they follow muhammad and his book, your prophet and thug who had s.ex with a child, do you deny it or do you approve of it? because you are the one who kiss the ground 5 times a day saying his name, the messenger of your god, right?
And who gives a s.hit of Richard whatever anyways. nobody.

You could have just said 'No, I don't know of any Muslims following the example of Richard the II'.

The correct answer to why Richard II married a 7 year old is - 'It was a political marriage'.

(You're welcome)

Cheers,
Shafique

Did muhammad forced a child to marry and have s.ex with? Simple question.

No.

Simple answer to a simple question.

But more to the point, Islam does not condone pre-marital s.ex, under aged s.ex or forced marriages. Despite what loons want to believe.

Cheers,
Shafique

muhammad “married” Aisha when she was six years old. You are wrong again.....

http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/pedophile.htm

Please re-read the last sentence of my last post. Then read the sentence before that.

Can you now see why you've failed?

Now - the fact is that Richard II etc married young girls for political reasons. This was in Europe centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed away. The Prophet, pbuh, entered into a number of political marriages - including divorcees and widows.

Facts caps, facts - the achilles heel of loons, again.

Cheers,
Shafique

This thread is NOT about your last sentence (spin) but about muslims who force underage girls into marriage.
Fact is that muhammad shows the example because he married a 6 years old child and had s.ex with when she was 9
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/pedophile.htm

Having sexual feelings for small children is called pedophilia

So, you'd argue that Richard II was a paedophile for entering into an arranged marriage with a 7 year old for political reasons. Hmm.

However, my point still stands:
Islam does not condone forced marriages, under-age s.ex. Despite what loons argue.

Cheers,
Shafique

This thread and its links demonstrate that forced marriages are caused by muslims in an immense majority.
This thread is not about Richard II who was no pope or messenger of God.
muhammad was the messenger of allah, and he married a child and had s.ex with her. which makes him a pedophile.
If Richard II did, he would be too, I dont know if he did or not, he might have been be just political. but who cares, nobody is worshiping Richard II . In the case of muhammad it was not political, because he was a pedophile.
Read the attachment and learn
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/pedophile.htm

shafique wrote:the achilles heel of loons, again.

I'd say the very weak spot of Islam is Muhammed's dirty deeds. Thats why Muslims get so violent when people get close to Muhammed (try to draw him for example). Deep down they know something is very wrong, and in the end that is a good thing and hopefull

Another loon fantasy that is not based on reality.

The problem with the loon version of history is that Muslims don't actually believe the loon version, nor do they act upon it. Muslims instead consider the Prophet, pbuh, to embody all the virtues of a moral, just, loving, compassionate, loyal, brave, spiritual human being.

The fact remains that Islam does not condone under-age s.ex or forced marriages.

Centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed on - European and Eastern Monarchs were entering into political marriages with child brides.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: Muslims instead consider the Prophet, pbuh, to embody all the virtues of a moral, just, loving, compassionate, loyal, brave, spiritual human being.

Muhammed was a war monger womanizer to put it mildly. Responsible amongst others for genocide and ethnic cleansing.

shafique wrote:The fact remains that Islam does not condone under-age s.ex or forced marriages.

Islam doesn't condone pre-menstrual se.x, thats something very different!

Yes, we know what the loon version of history is and how they demonise Muhammad, pbuh.

As stated above, Muslims don't believe the loon spin and in all the accusations you've levelled against the historical events, the loon spin was exposed.

In this case, child marriages for political reasons was being carried out in Europe centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed away. This is fact.

So, the smear of paedophilia is a cynical one that is not based on fact. Especially when the other wives and when they were married are taken into account.

Islam does not condone s.ex outside of marriage - as everyone knows. And it does not condone forced marriages.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:In this case, child marriages for political reasons was being carried out in Europe centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed away. This is fact.

How weak Islam is, needing to find reassurance constantly from European princes and kings.

shafique wrote:So, the smear of paedophilia is a cynical one that is not based on fact. Especially when the other wives and when they were married are taken into account.

What a strange and weak argument. Many modern day pedophiles are legally married.

shafique wrote:Islam does not condone s.ex outside of marriage

It does condone se.x as soon as mentruation happened, and many consider that statutary rape!

Well, you thinking Islam is weak for me pointing out that European monarchs also practised child marriages for political means sounds mightily like 'sour grapes' to me.

But back to this thread's topic - glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.

Cheers,
Shafique

You are confusing 2 issues Shaf.
Political marriage with a child is NOT pedophelia.
Having $ex with a child IS pedophelia. Muhammed had $ex with a 9 old child, it is vile, it is pervert, and it is pedophelia. Whether you accept it or not does not matter, it is well documented that Muhammed consumated his marriage with a child. Your denial constitutes acceptance of this practice.

-- Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:47 pm --

shafique wrote: glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.
Cheers,
Shafique

I am glad that you admit that there's NO argument that Islam does NOT condone forced marriages or $ex outside marriage. Which means Islam DOES condone marriage and $ex outside marriage.
You just said it yourself.

In this video a muslim cleric makes it absolutely clear that islam condones marriage and s.ex with underage girls, watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OxszPhDNOw&feature=fvst

Gertrude - I'm glad that you've got half the argument. Well done.

So, we agree that there's a difference between a political marriage between a ruler and a child bride and paedophilia. The question then becomes whether the one marriage of the Prophet to Aisha was political or not.

To Muslims and historians, the answer is clearly that it was a political marriage and not a sign of paedophillia. The marriage was consummated only after Aisha had come of age.

What was the age of the bride of Richard II (or the other examples) when the marriage was consumated?

But loon ideas of historical events aside, today the issue of forced marriage being not allowed in Islam is crystal clear.

As for your funny attempt at a double negative - you're quite right, I should have been more precise:
It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.
Cheers,
Shafique

You said it all Shaf. read yourself.
Fact: muhammad had $ex with his wife when she was 9 old, you saying she was of age shows that you condone pedophelia.
Did you watch the video posted by caps, islam does condone marriage and sex by underage girls, it comes from a cleric, no loon here.

I trust that you also read my clarification (which was more precisely worded):

shafique wrote:It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

Islam does not condone s.ex outside marriage and forced marriages - that's the point of this thread.

The age of maturity and legal age of marriage is a separate issue - and different countries have different minimum ages. The age of consent is as low as 13 in Spain, for example - and back in the 7th century puberty was taken as the age of maturity.

Cheers,
Shafique