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gertrude wrote:Kanelli, you think you are going to brush off all the links and pictures Herve posted with your single post ?
if anyone has credibility it is not you.

I'm brushing them off because they appear to be propaganda when I look at the contents and dig deeper.

gertrude, you are notorious for your anti-Muslim propaganda on here, so it is no surprise that you back up herve when he makes claims with no evidence or faulty propaganda as evidence. You lack credibility as well.

I don't think any of you propagandists know the meaning of credibility, so forgive me if I don't give a rat's ass about whether you think I am credible or not.

Muhammad isn't anymore of a pedophile than a woman who has relations with another woman (and indeed marries one) is a lesbian.

I think gertrude is playing a nasty trick on herve - pretending that she also believes in the internet hoax about mass wedding.

eh is staying quiet on the subject of the hoax - he's figured out herve is making a fool of himself.

But let's not loose track of the fact that the evidence from Quran, hadith and science is thus far still unchallenged. That speaks volumes.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I think gertrude is playing a nasty trick on herve - pretending that she also believes in the internet hoax about mass wedding.

eh is staying quiet on the subject of the hoax - he's figured out herve is making a fool of himself.

Oh, Shafique starts his magic mind reading again. Shafique, you barely bring in anything new with your posts. You just post non-sense and repeat yourself. Pushing your opinion down everybody's throat and treating other opinions as bacteria that needs to be disinfected. Try bringing in something new with your next post without trolling.

Ok - here's something new.

I wonder whether FD also believes in the internet hoax that caps and herve believes in?

But back to the subject of this thread - we have two camps:
1. Loons who believe Islam allows paedophillia and forced marriages and rely on internet hoaxes and memri specials, and
2. the rest of us who are waiting for any serious discussion on the Quranic, Hadith and scientific evidence presented which show that Islam does not allow forced marriages, s.ex outside of marriage etc.

No smoke, no mirrors - just (verifiable) facts.

Cheers,
Shafique

There are two groups of people in this discussion:

-Those that consider a 50+ man having se.x with a 9 year old pedophilia
-Those that donot consider a 50+ man having se.x with a 9 year old pedophilia.

The first group are made out as loons by poster Shafique.

Loons will always avoid discussing facts and evidence, and will always revert to their beliefs. That's what distinguishes loons from those who are interested in discussing issues and examining evidence.

This thread is about forced marriages, and the loons are the ones in denial that Islam does not condone forced marriages. The perrenial loon belief about paedophillia has been addressed and the loon 'ostrich' argument makes an appearance (notably FD admitting he is not interested in the facts presented).

However, we also have comedic value from the extreme loons who believe that an internet hoax is real! Now, that is funny.


Cheers,
Shafique

Countless articles of human right violations show that islam condone forced marriages and $ex with prebuscent little girls. al shafique calls these articles a hoax, and those who read them loons, with no other arguments. Because the clergy oppose the end of child marriage, and because clerics say it is permissible, then islam condones it.

Saudi Girl, 8, Divorces Husband, 50
"A court in the central Oneiza region previously rejected a request by the girl’s mother for a divorce and ruled that the girl would have to wait until she reached puberty to file a petition then."

"The 8-year-old girl’s marriage was not the only one in the kingdom to receive attention in recent months. Saudi newspapers have highlighted several cases in which young girls were married off to much older men "

"Saudi Arabia’s conservative Muslim clergy have opposed the drive to end child marriages. In January, the kingdom’s most senior cleric said it was permissible for 10-year-old girls to marry and those who believe they are too young are doing the girls an injustice."

http://newsone.com/world/associated-pre ... usband-50/

shafique wrote:Loons will always avoid discussing facts and evidence, and will always revert to their beliefs. That's what distinguishes loons from those who are interested in discussing issues and examining evidence.

This thread is about forced marriages, and the loons are the ones in denial that Islam does not condone forced marriages. The perrenial loon belief about paedophillia has been addressed and the loon 'ostrich' argument makes an appearance (notably FD admitting he is not interested in the facts presented).

However, we also have comedic value from the extreme loons who believe that an internet hoax is real! Now, that is funny.


Cheers,
Shafique

You are dysregulating more and more. Try at least to keep it together a little bit, troll.

LOL - I find it much more efficient to type loons than Islamophobes. Your obsession with me and ignoring the issues of this thread is a bit creepy.

Now, why don't you help your friend herve out with his beliefs - he's getting his weird ideas again. I'm sure you can explain to him how his snippets don't show that Islam condones forced marriages - the evidence in Quran, Hadith etc are quite clear.

Cheers,
Shafique

Instead of trolling, why don´t you react to Herve´s post. What is your reaction to Muslim clergy, who find it ok for this girl to marry an older man:

Simple - any clergy that advocates forced marriages or believes in the internet hoax are as crazee as Caps and herve are to think that Islam advocates forced marriages. Photos of bridesmaids being passed off as brides shows that you guys don't have any real evidence - but hey, the photo is oddly reminiscent of the grotesque beauty parades they have in the USA - where recently one young girl created a controversy when her mum dressed her up as a prostitute - I think there was even a thread on this here, IIRC.

Edit - here's the 3 year old:

http://www.usmagazine.com/momsbabies/ne ... ume-201199

Now imagine your reaction if rudeboy, say, posted this photo and started an internet hoax that she's a real prostitute. That's what caps and herve are doing when they believe the internet hoax.

Full facts and references are clearly given in this video in terms of what Islam teaches:


Clear evidence that any Muslim who says forced marriages are ok (or who believe in the internet hoax like herve does) are contradicting Islamic teaching.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, you really don't make any sense , it is interesting to see how you keep denying that they are young brides.
The hoax, if any, is your denial, you call them "bridesmaids", not realizing that a bridesmaids contains "BRIDES", bridesmaids are for the brides, not for the groom indeed.
So should not you these poor little girls "groomsmaids".?

shafique wrote:Simple - any clergy that advocates forced marriages

The quote from the clergy in Herve´s article doesnot mention forced specifically, so your respons is irrelevant and evasive.

"Saudi Arabia’s conservative Muslim clergy have opposed the drive to end child marriages. In January, the kingdom’s most senior cleric said it was permissible for 10-year-old girls to marry and those who believe they are too young are doing the girls an injustice."

One can only guess where the evasiveness stems from. Shame? Comprehension difficulties maybe?

shafique wrote:Full facts and references are clearly given in this video in terms of what Islam teaches:

By repeating the same thing over and over, it only seems you need to convince yourself that a 50+ having se.x with a 9 year old is not pedophiliac behavior. Besides the video bases a large portion of the argument on times when Neanderthalers were roaming the earth. Interesting though that is specified what consent means. According to the video, silent means consent. Yep, a 6 year old being silent, means her consent to marriage. This is quite idiotic.

Mass wedding of grown up muslim men with little girls as young as 9.

Flying Dutchman wrote:There are two groups of people in this discussion:

-Those that consider a 50+ man having se.x with a 9 year old pedophilia
-Those that donot consider a 50+ man having se.x with a 9 year old pedophilia.

The first group are made out as loons by poster Shafique.

So where do I fit? I see the Quran, Hadith and Islamic laws that talk about what is considered se.xual maturity and the age of consent. According to the one paper, there is scientific evidence of an age of se.xual maturity that shows that thousands of years ago 9 year olds were already menstruating. In the society back then children had to grow up quickly and make their own way in life, unlike today. Especially girls were not spending time in school and there was no additional criteria of someone being mature enough after reaching a certain level of schooling, like we have today. With all of this evidence I can see why young people were likely married off and why 9 year olds were likely have se.x. However, what I don't agree with is why much older men were paired off with such young brides. I'm interested in whether there is anything in the Quran that discusses a proper age range for couples marrying. Otherwise I still have to agree that either there is an element of pedophilia going on, or it is a matter of possession/dominance and use of a female, or perhaps both. In any case, it seems quite immoral for decades older men to be marrying and having se.x with very young brides.

See herve still believes the internet hoax despite the fact it is a total fabrication. The brides weren't filmed, and these girls were relatives of the grooms - bridesmaids, not brides.

The big thing point is that Muslims are aware of a problem, and don't ignore the issue of some tribes who do practice forced marriages.

The point is that Islam does not condone forced marriages. The loons have it the wrong way round - they are blaming Islam for the actions of a minority who are going against the teachings of Islam.

The difference is that evidence for Islam's clear teachings and explanations for historical political marriages (which are even then only consummated after physical and mental maturity) has been presented. The loon side presents internet hoaxes as fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

so...muhammad the pedophile who married a 6 years old is a hoax too?

Has the penny finally dropped herve?

Do you now realise how silly you are to claim the hoax was real?

(As for the political wedding, I refer you to the video link above - let me know which particular part of the evidence presented you think is false/misleading.)

Cheers,
Shafique

so...muhammad the pedophile who married a 6 years old is a hoax too?

You fall under the same patern than any Muslims who proudly display Islam's particulars, only to deny them once they become counterproductive.

In what way is referring you to evidence and asking to discuss the points raised evading the question?

The evidence to answer the question whether the marriage to Aisha represents paedophillia (as you believe) or a political marriage that was consummated when the bride reached physical and mental maturity (as the evidence shows) has been given to you. We can discuss the evidence, or you can just repeat your belief.

You were wrong about the Hamas internet hoax, so perhaps you may want to review the evidence this time round - it may save you some time and considerable embarrassment.

Cheers,
Shafique

So you agree that a 50 old man be sexually active with a 6 old girl and preforming $ex between her thighs, like muhammad the pedohpile.

Another hoax for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GRHD7nm ... re=related

No, I don't agree with your belief - as the evidence shows you are wrong in your conclusions.

I'm happy to discuss the evidence that contradicts your view. You seem to be avoiding this.

You were wrong to believe in the obvious hoax, so perhaps you need a bit more time to realise your error here.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:According to the one paper, there is scientific evidence of an age of se.xual maturity that shows that thousands of years ago 9 year olds were already menstruating.

Yes, the article speaks of an era when Neandertahlers were still walking the earth.

kanelli wrote: With all of this evidence I can see why young people were likely married off and why 9 year olds were likely have se.x. However, what I don't agree with is why much older men were paired off with such young brides. I'm interested in whether there is anything in the Quran that discusses a proper age range for couples marrying. Otherwise I still have to agree that either there is an element of pedophilia going on, or it is a matter of possession/dominance and use of a female, or perhaps both. In any case, it seems quite immoral for decades older men to be marrying and having se.x with very young brides.

Pedophilia is more than age of consent and the age of the child, it also involves an age difference. A 13 and a 14 year old having intercourse are not considered pedophiles by the medical definition. A 50+ man with a 9 year old is! You would think a person who is the exemplar for the rest of humankind would be more careful/thoughtful with his examples.

Age of consent is a mute argument in Islam anyways, as the silence of the child is considered consent.

Paedophillia is actually a s.exual attraction for under age girls. Hugh Heffner and other older men who have relations with women who are decades younger, aren't usually called paedophiles if the ladies are s.exually and mentally mature (i.e. are physically and mentally women, not girls).

The canard that the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, was a paedophile does not stand up to even a cursory scrutiny. Firstly, he was faithful to his first wife who was 15 years older than he was. He married many times after that - with widows, divorcees and politically motivated marriages. Aisha was the youngest bride, and the marriage was not consumated until she was physically and mentally mature. She herself has given many accounts of her marriage - there is a wealth of information out there.

FD is right, Muslims do indeed take Muhammad, pbuh, as a model for mankind. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Muslim men DO NOT go around lusting after girls and then say Islam says we can do it.. we don't, as much as loons wish it were the case.

The evidence presented in the video shows that whilst Aisha was a child on marriage, the marriage was only consummated years later and that as per Islamic teachings, she was mentally and physically a woman.

The charge of paedophillia can only stand IF Aisha was not mentally and physically a woman when the marriage was consummated.

Given that Muslims do believe in the evidence that Aisha was mature, it follows that Muslims and Islam do not condone paedophillia.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Aisha was the youngest bride, and the marriage was not consumated until she was physically and mentally mature.

She was still playing with dolls.

That's quite worrying that you consider a nine year old child to be mentally and physically a woman.

I wouldn't consider Beth to be that and she is about to turn 16. I would take a gun to any 50 year old man who approached her.

What is more worrying to me is the speed and willingness to accept clear hoaxes as fact, and to refuse to actually acknowledge/discuss evidence produced.

Just because you want to believe that Aisha wasn't mature when the marriage was consummated, does not mean the evidence isn't there and should be ignored.

The uncomfortable fact for you is that Islam does not allow forced marriages, s.ex outside of marriage and that marriageable age is in the Quran, and means only mature women are to be married. There's no room for paedophillia.

Now, if you want to examine the evidence and discuss - let's do so. Otherwise, you're just trolling.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

kanelli wrote:According to the one paper, there is scientific evidence of an age of se.xual maturity that shows that thousands of years ago 9 year olds were already menstruating.

Yes, the article speaks of an era when Neandertahlers were still walking the earth.

kanelli wrote: With all of this evidence I can see why young people were likely married off and why 9 year olds were likely have se.x. However, what I don't agree with is why much older men were paired off with such young brides. I'm interested in whether there is anything in the Quran that discusses a proper age range for couples marrying. Otherwise I still have to agree that either there is an element of pedophilia going on, or it is a matter of possession/dominance and use of a female, or perhaps both. In any case, it seems quite immoral for decades older men to be marrying and having se.x with very young brides.

Pedophilia is more than age of consent and the age of the child, it also involves an age difference. A 13 and a 14 year old having intercourse are not considered pedophiles by the medical definition. A 50+ man with a 9 year old is! You would think a person who is the exemplar for the rest of humankind would be more careful/thoughtful with his examples.

Age of consent is a mute argument in Islam anyways, as the silence of the child is considered consent.

Have you read the research paper FD? The video shows that the research paper covers more ages through history than when Neanderthals were walking the earth.

Can a 50+ man become se.xually attracted to a 9 year old who has hit puberty, has curves, breasts and menstruates? Maybe! It is a strange concept for me, because I don't see many 9 yr olds who look like that. Apparently my own mother hit puberty early, she was 10, had curves and breasts already. She said she had many boys, including teens, interested in her because of that. No 50 year olds hitting on her as far as I know. She was pregnant with me at 16 (my dad was 18). For attraction there has to be more than just physical beauty there, and I don't see how 50+ year old men could be attracted to a 9 yr old. However, in arranged marriages, attraction doesn't really matter, especially if the family is arranging the marriage for political reasons. The basic problem is that women are treated like objects that can be used for bargaining. Older men may want a young bride for many reasons, including se.xual attraction to young girls (pedophilia), or simply because they want a wife they can completely dominate, and all they have to do is find a family with a young girl and make a strategic bargain to obtain her for marriage. No 9 yr old girl would ever be attracted to a 50+ guy. She would not want to be married to someone the same age as her grandfather, nor have se.x happily with such an old man. It would be a wifely duty and that's all. I'd hardly call that fair to young girls. So, I agree that a marriage like Muhammed and Aisha's is not a good example to give humankind.

Where did you get the part about a girl's silence being her consent? Is that in the Quran or Hadith? Please post the relevant passage.

kanelli wrote:Where did you get the part about a girl's silence being her consent? Is that in the Quran or Hadith? Please post the relevant passage.

It is in the video Shafique posted several times. Watch it.