For Eh - Contradictions In NT

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Sep 24, 2009
What confused me was the silence when I asked who the men Paul was addressing when he said 'your women' must stay silent in church and only learn from their husbands.

Your answer that it was referring to women who chit-chat in church was perplexing - and I assumed that you had some basis for this leap of imagination, and was waiting for the explanation.

However, all you seem to be saying is that the other verses DO contradict this verse - but you can't bring yourself to admitting this (or the fact that Kung et al say this verse was a fabricated later addition).

Happy to answer any more questions you may have - I suspect you will continue to avoid answering my straightforward questions. Ostrich defence indeed.

Cheers,
Shafique

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Sep 24, 2009
I totally agree. You do not seem to understand what has been posted about I Cor 14:34 - but in the end - we agree that the NT contradicts your interpretation of I Cor 14:34, which is the point you made in the first post here.

Have you now changed your mind?
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Sep 24, 2009
Cool - great.

So, Kung and I agree there is a contradiction in the Bible relating to whether women should speak in church, and you disagree with us.

No probs - we'll gloss over the fact you still refuse to answer who is being addressed in this verse (which Kung says is a fabrication).

Do you want to address the other contradictions in the link I gave now?

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Sep 24, 2009
Actually, I agree with you that your interpretation of I Cor is contradicted by other verses of the NT.

I'd hate to think how much you'd post if I disagreed with you on this point!
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Sep 25, 2009
Well, I've never denied that the Bible contains contradictions - so it is strange that you ask whether I've changed my mind on the subject, especially as you've quoted Biblical scholars who say it is a contradiction and that this misogynistic verse was a later fabrication.

I totally agree that Christians need to explain the contradiction with other verses - and have sympathy for the view that it was inserted by incompetent forgers (again from a quote you gave).

And let us not lose sight of the fact that I've always said, we must choose what verses of the Bible to follow and which to ignore.

Can you tell me when you follow this verse? Do you tell your women to shut up?
1 Corinthians:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



'For it is a shame for women to speak in Church'

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Shafique
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Sep 25, 2009
It is a shame for women to chit-chat during mass.

It's not a shame for women to prophecy during mass, it's not a shame for women to conduct service in mass, etc,.

If you read the New Testament wholly, it becomes clear in that verse what type of speaking is not allowed.

Context, dear shafique, context.
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Sep 25, 2009
^Thanks - I guess you'll be writing to Prof Kung to tell him he is wrong then.

:roll:

How could we have been soooo stupid - now you've clarified it, of course there isn't a contradiction. :?

How enlightening for the Bible to say:
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home

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Shafique
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Sep 30, 2009
bump for eh - he seems to be developing another one of his false memories, thinking he gave an explanation for why this contradiction isn't a contradiction, when in fact he hasn't explained which men Paul was addressing in this fabricated and contradictory verse (according to Kung).

I don't expect eh to answer, as he patently does not have an answer - but I just want to remind him that he hasn't answered the questions.

Perversely, we agree with him that the Quran contradicts his spin on verses 9.29 etc - and that may be what is confusing him, that someone agrees with him!

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Sep 30, 2009
I wouldn't call your argument about the contradiction in the NT 'funny' - just plain wierd. "Its not a contradiction, because I don't believe it is a contradiction - but the meaning is contradicted by the other verses"

As for whether the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 - as I've said, I agree with you. Why the insistence that I re-supply you with the quotes I gave 2 weeks ago?

Is it because you can't accept I agree with you?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Sep 30, 2009
^ I see that eh-oh is having trouble with the quote function. So sad.


I presume you are trying to use the same argument I've used for your thread - that you now agree that the Bible contains contradictions if we interpret:
'Don't speak in Church' as 'don't speak in church'.


But as I said in my previous post above, I don't expect you have an answer to the simple question - who are the men Paul is addressing when he says 'your women' ... should only learn at home from husbands etc. (Which, comes to think of it, begs the questions about the unmarried/widowed/divorced women - do they just not get to learn at all????)

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Shafique
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Oct 06, 2009
eh requested I produce references from (more) theologians to back up what Kung is quoted as saying about the insertion of mysogynistic verses into the NT.

Let me therefore add one more reference (more can be added if required - but eh, can work on this one for now).


Father Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, O.P.:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued…, but a post-Pauline interpolation…. Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and probably stem from the same circle.

New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J, and Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm., Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1990, pages 811-812)

So not only does this theologian say the verses are contradictory (obviously they are), but that they are forgeries.

I trust this is an adequate reference for you eh - if not, let me know, I have others - but the Good Father is a leading authority on Paul:

Jerome Murphy-O'Connor is Professor of New Testament at the Ecole Biblique et Archeologique Francaise in Jerusalem and a leading authority on the historical Jesus and Saint Paul. His other publications include Paul: A Critical Life and Paul, His Story .


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Shafique
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Oct 08, 2009
So, eh states in another thread that the information I'm posting above is 'well known' - which was my contention all along - it is a well known fact that the Bible contains verses inserted by Pauline Christians and falsely attributed to various authors, and that these inserted verses are in support of Pauline Christian theology and version of history, and (in this case) contradict other verses.

As O'Conner states above, the misogynistic views of later Pauline Christians led them to insert the above verses and attribute them to Paul.

This contrasts with the earlier official Church view that what the Bible says is true and that the authorship is not to be questioned. There are some that still believe in this - but precious few who have actually studied the evidence (such as O'Conner, Kung) still believe in this.

Of late, I've noticed a trend in eh-oh to go for ad hominem attacks (attack me rather than message) - so this quote from NN Taleb resonated with me:

An ad hominem attack against an intellectual, not against an idea, is highly flattering. It indicates that the person has nothing intelligent to say about your message.

NN Taleb, The Black Swan, pg280


As well as this snippet from pg 279:
..so you become numb to insults, particularly if you teach yourself to imagine that the person uttering them is a variant of a noisy ape with little personal control.
:)

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Shafique
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Oct 08, 2009
Dear Shafique "May Allah bless you in this world & hereafter"
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Oct 08, 2009
Where have I attacked you, shafique? I've questioned your reading ability, as you have mine, but that isn't a horrible attack.

You've been unable to state where you come to your conclusions. I suspect this is because you simply make them up or read them off of a certain missionary website you've cribbed talking points off of.

So, which source have you read that states the apostles were distrustful of Paul's missionary work?

I'll also laugh at what you say is the official church view of this or that.

You haven't read very much about Christian history and this shows when you claimed that the church historians always believed that the second epistle attributed to Peter was never questioned based on its authorship.
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Oct 09, 2009
I know you want to believe that my views are not based on an examination of the historical material and scholarly works - no issues with you wanting to hold that belief. Questioning whether I can read is an ad hominem attack, especially when I have quoted O'Conner above categorically contradicting your view on this contradictory verse of the NT.

The quote is from a book about the compilation of the Bible - so is highly relevant. O'Conner is both a priest (a Dominican Monk) and a leading authority on the 'historical' Paul - having written two books on the subject.

This thread is about one contradiction in the NT - one you disagree with Father O'Conner, Hans Kung etc. It is a quaint view that the NT contains no contradictions, but appears to be based solely on a pre-Medieval view of the Bible and certainly not based on modern Christian/Biblical scholarship.


I take it you now have to agree that my statements that the Bible has both contradicitons and fabricated verses inserted by Pauline Christians is based on actual evidence rather than blind faith.


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Shafique
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Oct 09, 2009
That's one person's opinion - and the opinion of most Muslim theologians, including the first and second generation of Muslim scholars, is that the Koran contains contradictions and these contradictions override each other.
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Oct 10, 2009
Again with the misrepresentation? I quoted from a book by experts (not one guy) dealing with the compilation of the Bible (a Bible commentary). I chose to quote a Biblical and historical expert who has examined the evidence for writings attributed to Paul.

Now, I totally agree that your view is a view of 'one guy alone' - that the verse isn't a contradiction and isn't a fabrication.



Father Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, O.P.:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued…, but a post-Pauline interpolation…. Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and probably stem from the same circle.

New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J, and Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm., Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1990, pages 811-812)

So not only does this theologian say the verses are contradictory (obviously they are), but that they are forgeries.

I trust this is an adequate reference for you eh - if not, let me know, I have others - but the Good Father is a leading authority on Paul:

Jerome Murphy-O'Connor is Professor of New Testament at the Ecole Biblique et Archeologique Francaise in Jerusalem and a leading authority on the historical Jesus and Saint Paul. His other publications include Paul: A Critical Life and Paul, His Story .

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Shafique
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Oct 10, 2009
You really like flogging dead horses don't you - I've agreed with you that I agree the NT contradicts your interpretation of its passages!

(Also, I'm mildly impressed by your wikipedia trawling. Are your numerous books on Christianity out of your reach or is wikipedia too convenient a source to paste extracts of books from?)
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Oct 10, 2009
I'm not a fan of flogging dead animals - but I chose the lesser of two evils when I responded to your request for more references.

I take it from your reply above that Father O'Conner's credentials are not going to be disputed by you, and that you are just aligning yourself with those who still believe the Bible is wholly God's word despite the evidence.

On this point, I'm with the Father - but as I said, you're entitled to your opinions.

Let me know in future when you actually want me to quote scholars and when you are just being rhetorical.

But let me thank you again for bringing this contradiction of the NT to all our attentions and highlighting that your 'belief' that it isn't a fabrication or a contradiction is based on 'faith' rather than historical evidence.

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Shafique
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Oct 10, 2009
Well, I think the credentials of Ibn Abbas (who was a cousin to Muhammad and was a scholar under the reign of the rightly guided caliphs) to interpret the Koran is superior than Father O'Conner's credentials to interpret the New Testament.

What do you think?
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Oct 10, 2009
Did Ibn Abbas agree with you that the contradictory verses of the New Testament weren't added by Pauline Christians?

I must have missed that commentary (or perhaps you are mixing threads again) ;)

As I said, it is very amusing to see you bring up the Quran in a thread about your contention that the Bible does not contain contradictory verses - and especially see you try and avoid the fact that Biblical scholars with the credentials of Kung and Murphy fundamentally disagree with your quaint views of the Bible.

10/10 for effort - 0/10 for reasoned argument though. ;)

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Oct 11, 2009
Nope - Ibn Abbas agreed with me that the Koran contains contradictory passages and the passages that are contradicted by later revealed verses should be ignored.

One must decide who to believe - Islam's first Koranic scholar and companion of Muhammad (who was in fact Muhammad's cousin) and lived under the rule of the rightly guided caliphs when he wrote his tafseer on the Koran, or someone with no knowledge of Arabic who claims the Koran does not contain contradictions because he does not believe so.
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Oct 15, 2009
Umm - this thread is about the contradiction in the Bible, I wasn't aware that Ibn Abbas contradicted what Father O'Murphy's views above.

It appears you don't disagree now that the Bible contains verses added by post-Pauline authors which contradict other passages in the Bible. Bravo.

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Shafique
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Oct 16, 2009
You are missing the point.

I agree with your intial proposition that the New Testament contradicts your view of its passages.

But thanks for bringing this fact to our attention once again.
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Oct 16, 2009
See, it is good to discuss and clarify. You are quite right, I presented my view that 'not speaking in church' contradicts other verses of the Bible. (See, I too am agreeing with you - good eh!)

Good to see that you don't disagree that my initial view is that of Father O'Conner, Professor Hans Kung etc - all supported by evidence and quotes saying that the verse is both a contradiction and a fabrication.

It is most welcoming that you have expressed your belief - and it is a valid one, many other Christians also believe the Bible to be literally true and don't want to acknowledge the evidence presented by Biblical scholars listed. Some even have convinced themselves that the Bible contains no contradictions.

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Oct 22, 2009
Bump - for the references to contradictions in the Bible and the non-explanation of eh when faced with the conclusive explanations of Biblical scholars:


Father Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, O.P.:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued…, but a post-Pauline interpolation…. Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and probably stem from the same circle.


New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J, and Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm., Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1990, pages 811-812)

So not only does this theologian say the verses are contradictory (obviously they are), but that they are forgeries.

I trust this is an adequate reference for you eh - if not, let me know, I have others - but the Good Father is a leading authority on Paul:

Jerome Murphy-O'Connor is Professor of New Testament at the Ecole Biblique et Archeologique Francaise in Jerusalem and a leading authority on the historical Jesus and Saint Paul. His other publications include Paul: A Critical Life and Paul, His Story.


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Shafique
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Oct 22, 2009
It is good that we are beginning to agree - I totally agree that there are some that share your views about certain aspects of Islam, but as I stated before, this thread is about whether the Quran contradicts your view of 9.29 etc.

I agree with you that it does indeed.

Now - whether one chooses to believe your interpretation should be followed or whether the contradictory verses are the true teachings of Islam vis-a-vis treatment of Jews and Christians - well that has been debated ad-nauseum in other threads (eg 'the ethics of war in Islam' etc) - and indeed the 'Koranic scholars' have all commented on what Islam teaches in terms of wars - and you have misleadingly quoted a small number of them.

But thanks again for posting something that I can agree with - the Quran does indeed contradict your interpretation of 9.29.

It is heartwarming indeed that you accept that the view of Muslims that the Quran is the literal word of God is a 'valid' one. I can see that this would be galling for a person who quoted scholars whose studies have confirmed that the same cannot be said about the Bible (you quoted Kung, for example) - and that this is an accepted fact now by all and sundry (that the Bible contains fabricated by Pauline Christians and which don't appear in the earliest manuscripts). But I won't go any further, as this is a thread about the Quran contradicting your interpretation of 9.29. Nice of you to keep bumping this thread.

(You are getting better at the copying and pasting - the next step is to improve the comprehension of what you are posting Wink - and perhaps answering the unanswered questions, such as Goldstein etc)
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Oct 22, 2009
Again with the confusion - this thread was about you backing up your belief that the Bible contains no contradictions.

The fact that O'Conner et al have concluded that the Bible clearly contains contradictions and fabrications is the main point I wanted to bring out - and contrasts with your explanation 'it is not a contradiction because I choose to believe it isn't'

I really can't see why you think bringing up your views on the Quran will obscure your non-explanation of your view of the Bible not containing contradictions.

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Shafique
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Oct 22, 2009
I dont think it matters whether condradictions are in NT/OT.....
It isn't the muslims but the christians that have as many books and churches as they wish...So they better deal with them or just don't bother and accept islam as the last devine revelation guided for the truth...


By Magdy Abd Al-Shafy
Moslems believe in the Bible as a word of God , but in the same time we believe that the bible in our hands is the not completely the word of God , some verse are still bear the evidence that they are the word of God while most bear the evidence that they are either displaced or interpolated or changed –some were completely omitted .

The Holy Qurans says " And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.( Al-Ma'da:13)

If discrepancies are found in the words of a certain witness before the judge ,is it possible that the Judge will give any credit to this witness ? !!!

This is the case with the Bible regarding the human tampering .

You can find differences between the different translations .

You can find differences between one edition and another .

You can find differences between the bible chapter .

You can find scientific and historical errors .

What about the heinous sex stories in the bible ?

what about the lost chapters ?

How can we understand the strange likeness regarding Trinity , death on the Cross , burial then ascension and many Hindu ancient heathen religions ?!!!!

The Christians do not know the truth about the their religion , No one knows how far the synods changed and how they had a heavy hand in forming the so-called bible .

They don't know about that newly-invented science that is concerned with filtering the biblical texts to find which is nearest to the original texts though they don't have these original texts.

"The five Bibles" , a new book authored by 200 theologians is published in US , the book really reflects the problem as it says: " 82%of the authenticated details in the four bibles were never the word of Jesus .

The catholic bishops in England and Scotland issued a document in which they say " the Holy Bible is not accurate and there are many scientific and historic errors and even justifies violence towards the others .(The Times "5/10/2005).

The pope in Rome asked his followers not to attach high importance to the literalism of the Holy Book because it is not literally sacred .

Here a list of the contradictions and scientific errors in the Bible

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.


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War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


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Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


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Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


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Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


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The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.


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How many stalls and horsemen?
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


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Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."


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Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


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The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


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The bat is not a bird
LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.


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Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

"Gerah," the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated "chew the cud" in the KJV is more exactly "bring up the cud." Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.


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Insects do NOT have four feet
LEV 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
LEV 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
LEV 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.


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Snails do not melt
PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.


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Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


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Odd genetic engineering
GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.


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The shape of the earth
ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Astromical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.


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Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


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Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Heaven supported too
JOB 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.


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The hydrological cycle
ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Storehouses are not part of the cycle


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Order of creation
Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are "days," "evenings," and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim," which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods." In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good."

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)


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How orderly were things created?
#1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three "days."
#2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)


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How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)


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Moses' personality
Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."


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Righteous live?
Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."
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Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."


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Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
Matt.5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
Luke6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."


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Jesus' last words
Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."


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Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destryed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;


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Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Isreal and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Isreal, and provoked David to number Israel.


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The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.


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God be seen?
Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18]
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)


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CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)


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Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (Gen 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13)


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Judas died how?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18]


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Ascend to heaven"
And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)


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What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
Before the rooster crow - Matthew 26:34

Before the rooster crow twice - Mark 14:30


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How many times did the rooster crow?
MAR 14:72 And the second time the rooster crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the rooster crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the rooster crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the rooster crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the rooster crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the rooster crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The rooster shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the rooster crew.


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Who killed Saul
SA1 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
SA1 31:5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
SA1 31:6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.
SA2 1:15 And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.


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How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.


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Does every man sin?
KI1 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

CH2 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


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Who bought potter's field
ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.


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Who prophesied the potter's field?
Matthew 27:9-10 (mentions Jeremy but no such verse in Jeremiah) is in Zechariah 11:12-13


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Who bears guilt?
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.


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Do you answer a fool?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


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How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
SA2 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

SA2 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:


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How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
KI2 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

CH2 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.


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Marriage?
Proverbs 18:22
1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40)


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Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


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Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

(various trapsing)


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How many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention?
1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
Matthew 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
Acts 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)

MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.


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Judging
1 Cor 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)

1 Cor 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."


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Good deeds
Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)


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For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)


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Whom did they see at the tomb?
MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.


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God change?
malachi 3:6
james 1:17
1 samuel 15:29
jonah 3:10
genesis 6:6


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Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

zechariah 11:11-13
(nothing in Jeremiah remotely like)


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Who's sepulchers
acts 7:16
genesis 23:17,18


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Strong drink?
proverbs 31:6,7
john 2:11-11


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When second coming?
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

1 thessalonians 4:15-18


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Solomon's overseers
550 in I Kings 9:23
250 in II Chron 8:10


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The mother of Abijah:
Maachah the daughter of Absalom 2 Chron 9:20

Michaiah the daughter of Uriel 2 Chron 13:2


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When did Baasha die?
26th year of the reign of Asa I Kings 16:6-8

36th year of the reign of Asa I 2 Chron 16:1


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How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
22 in 2 Kings 8:26

42 in 2 Chron 22:2


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Who was Josiah's successor?
Jehoahaz - 2 Chron 36:1

Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11


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The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah.
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What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?scarlet - Matthew 27:28

purple -John 19:2


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What did they give him to drink?
vinegar - Matthew 27:34

wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23


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How long was Jesus in the tomb?
Depends where you look; Matthew 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," and Mark 10:34 has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again." As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days," but the post-Resurrection narratives have "on the third day."
Berrin
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Posts: 1390

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Oct 23, 2009
shafique wrote:Again with the confusion - this thread was about you backing up your belief that the Bible contains no contradictions.

The fact that O'Conner et al have concluded that the Bible clearly contains contradictions and fabrications is the main point I wanted to bring out - and contrasts with your explanation 'it is not a contradiction because I choose to believe it isn't'

I really can't see why you think bringing up your views on the Quran will obscure your non-explanation of your view of the Bible not containing contradictions.

Cheers,
Shafique


I'm glad we both agree that your own arguments aren't very convincing. One must have faith to believe that the Koran does not contain numerous contradictions.
event horizon
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