Biblical War Crimes

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 04, 2010
How can I put this bluntly?

NO I DO NOT CONDONE THE MURDER OF CIVILIANS IN COLD BLOOD - no argument will persuade me in joining you in excusing the crimes of the Israelites nor will I agree they are angelic.

Where is there any record of angels enslaving and raping virgins?

And, no I don't condemn anyone for 'thought crimes' either - just actions - eg. the actual cold blooded massacre of civilians by the Israelites.


This is a bit like animal farm - I can't see any difference between your views about Israelites slaughtering civilians and those who glorify suicide bombers. If anything, your condoning of the enslavement of virgins makes you worse than them.

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Shafique

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 05, 2010
You don't the condemn the murder of innocent civilians who were massacred by angels?

Shame on you.

Where is there any record of angels enslaving and raping virgins?


I'm not aware of a record of raping virgins in the passage you quoted, but the Muslim angels went further than that - they massacred the virgins (it's unknown if these virgins became houris).

This is a bit like animal farm - I can't see any difference between your views about Israelites slaughtering civilians and those who glorify suicide bombers. If anything, your condoning of the enslavement of virgins makes you worse than them.


Condoning the cold-blooded slaughter of innocent virgins makes you 'worse' than the Israelites.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 05, 2010
No I don't condemn acts of God - but you do. I see you consider this non-condemnation as shameful. I'll just chalk this down to another 'quaint' belief.

But you don't deny you are just like Al Qaeda and justify the slaughter of civilians by people - just as long as they use the excuse 'god ordered us to do it'.

But you also go beyond Al Qaeda in that you condone the enslavement of 32,000 virgins and their rape (or perhaps you think there is another interpretation of the Biblical commandment to keep the virgins for yourselves..?)

So, I'm to be shamed for NOT condoning acts of God, but you're happy to compare butchering Israelites with angels.

Hmmm.

Shame on who again?

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 05, 2010
How were the actions of the Israelis *not* acts of God? God commanded warfare and the Israelis followed through. 'God' commands his followers to wipe out cities in the Koran, and his followers follow through with it.

Hey, if it looks like a duck, quacks like and swims like a duck, it's a duck.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 06, 2010
The difference is that non-fanatics will denounce cold-blooded acts of murder and enslavement and rapes.

Another difference is that I'm unaware of any act of God where virgins are spared and then kept for the use of those who killed the families of the virgins.

But the biggest difference is that I condemn the massacre by Israelite and you excuse them - comparing the Israelites to angels.

You are therefore more extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden.

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 06, 2010
The difference is that non-fanatics will denounce cold-blooded acts of murder and enslavement and rapes.


Ok - do you denounce the cold-blooded acts of murder as recorded in the Koran? Or are you saying that you're a fanatic?

But the biggest difference is that I condemn the massacre by Israelite and you excuse them - comparing the Israelites to angels.


Hey, I'm of the opinion that the person who ordered something should receive most of the blame/condemnation if what they ordered was unjust/wrong.

I mean, that seems logical to me. So, do you condemn 'God' for ordering his followers to slay the peace-loving inhabitants of cities, as recorded in the Koran?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 06, 2010
Interesting tactic - you are desperate for me to join you in condoning acts of massacres and enslavement by Israelites.

And yet you think I'M the one who is a religious fanatic?

:?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 09, 2010
So, in summary eh condones the war crime and uses the excuse that 'god told them to do it'

Therefore he is no different from other religous fanatics who justify the cold blooded killing of civilians by men who use god as an excuse. He goes further by also condoning the enslavement of virgins (as opposed to imagined virgins in heaven)
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 09, 2010
I totally condemn the atrocities Allah ordered in the Koran and that his followers carried out.

Do you join me in condemning the slaughter of innocent civilians murdered by Allah's intermediaries?

I have a hard time imagining that you really believe in that quote from Tony Benn that compares an errant American rocket to a suicide bomber who deliberately explodes himself in a crowd of civilians.

Or perhaps you do, you just don't agree with it in all scenarios.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 09, 2010
I totally condemn the atrocities Allah ordered in the Koran and that his followers carried out.


Eh do you also condemn God when he sends angel Azrael to take the spirits of people away when its their turn to departure from earth?... Do you also condemn God that he takes the life off of a baby in his mothers womb or maybe just shortly after he was born, or else when he is a perfectly healty child i.e at 10 year old that he was not let to live longer just like some others into 100 years of old age.
Do you condemn God that he is not making your life eternal here on earth and that ends your life at any time he pleases which is what we call our predetermined destiny? Do you?

What I am trying to say is that we are all God's property, just like your belongings in your house are your property..
He can do anything he wants with mankind whom behave against his will..God has no problem to communicate his will to his messengers and that his messengers are in no way allowed to mischief or misbehave against God's will..
Do you have diffuculties to understand this issue?....

Oh by the way..didn't you earlier say that you recognize there is God and that you believe/trust in him?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
Those are false analogies. Babies dying due to natural causes is not comparable to Allah going out of his way to order the deaths of innocent civilians and having his angels or intermediaries do the actual killings.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
Those are false analogies. Babies dying due to natural causes is not comparable to Allah going out of his way to order the deaths of innocent civilians and having his angels or intermediaries do the actual killings.


what is natural causes?
I know quite a lot of cancer patients whom I think should have been dead by now but still living, and I know similar patience whom I think should have lived longer but were dead within few months..
I've heard of a lot of what we call miracles in life, totally unexpected but happened to suprise all of us..haven't you heard any?

Your and my creator can go out of his way when it concerns justice and his will..His will is that you don't behave against his laws. If you do he wages war against you as he wishes..In his case he has never punished anyone, unless he set the rules and informed them through his messengers..Anyone transgressed his law were punished be it by himself or through the hands of his messengers or something else as a cause..Don't you read the stories in Quran....i.e the case of pagans,tribes, certain groups of jews and christians refusing to recognise the reestablishment of God's pure religion.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
Eh - are you happy with the fact that both you and Al Qaeda want to persuade people that you are right yo condone the massacres of people as long as 'god orders it' is an excuse?

I can only repeat that I do not condemn acts of God and cannot join you in condoning the enslavement and rape of 32000 virgins by the Israelites, after they slaughtered the non-vigins and males.

Do you think you will persuade me you and Al Qaeda are correct? Sorry, I don't subscribe to your moral values and condemn the war crime commited by Israelites.

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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
.i.e the case of pagans,tribes, certain groups of jews and christians refusing to recognise the reestablishment of God's pure religion.


Yes, I'm aware that 'God' in the Koran has sent intermediaries to punish disbelievers in times past. The Koran records a number of cities where the civilians were all massacred by Allah's followers - men, women and children.

It speaks volumes that shafique sides with al Qaeda on the issue of massacring disbelievers. I do not condone what Allah orders in the Koran and I join any Muslim who denounces the massacres of the peace loving civilians who were killed because Allah told his followers to clean house.

I also would imagine, logically speaking, that Ibrahim should be considered to be a religious fanatic because he was willing to kill his own son because Allah told him so. Strangely, shafique has decided to skirt around my question if he also considers Ibrahim to be a religious fanatic.

Apparently, because Ibrahim was stopped at the last minute from sacrificing his son (because Allah told him to sacrifice a ram or something), that makes the whole episode of Ibrahim's attempted sacrifice perfectly acceptable. One has to wonder if that type of logic would wash if that story was found in non-sacred literature.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
Nice attempt at diverting attention away from the topic in the thread titile and the fact you are the ONLY person who is condoning the enslavement of virgins by the Israelites.

You don't challenge the fact that this makes you MORE extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden - he just agrees with you that it is ok to kill civilians in the name of God.

I am glad you also are failing miserably to convince me to join your gang who think Israelites slaughtering civilians is an act of God.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
Hey, I agree with you. Allah is harsher in the Koran than God is in the verse you quoted.

All disbelievers are to be put to the sword by Allah's intermediaries - just as the Koran instructs Muslims to do in verse 9:5 of the Koran.

So, no. I don't join you in condoning the wholesale slaughter of innocent, peace-loving disbelievers as recorded in the Koran.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 10, 2010
All disbelievers are to be put to the sword by Allah's intermediaries - just as the Koran instructs Muslims to do in verse 9:5 of the Koran.


Why do you keep misquoting the verses. Is that becouse you believe there is God and that you believe in God?

Disbelievers are Allah's property as well. They are given free will to choose to become a beliver or not, that's as long as they don't fight against belivers of Allah and his messangers and that they keep truce and not violate the rights of believers when God reestablishes his religion amongst people. It's as simple as that..
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 11, 2010
shafique wrote:Nice attempt at diverting attention away from the topic in the thread titile and the fact you are the ONLY person who is condoning the enslavement of virgins by the Israelites.

You don't challenge the fact that this makes you MORE extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden - he just agrees with you that it is ok to kill civilians in the name of God.

I am glad you also are failing miserably to convince me to join your gang who think Israelites slaughtering civilians is an act of God.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 11, 2010
Eh, care to deal with the following.. Is this the logic behind the recent slavery in America and by the Colonical powers of Europe in Africa etc.

so pls, Care to posses some intelligence to reason...By the way I reject them to be the revelation of Prophet Moses or prophet Jesus.Had they were given chance to establish proper religion like prophet mohammad we wouldn't have faced a lot of dilemma coming from Juodo-Christian world(tridition)...How would you compare islam's prohibition of killing infants,children, women, animals, trees and all other substances around in case of a war against adult male violaters- to the biblical version?
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philosophy-dubai/comparative-religious-teachings-war-and-peace-t38766.html

Biblegod The Good And Slavery
GR Gaudreau

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YHWH, god of the Bible, we are incessantly told by Christians, is good and his mercy "endureth for ever". However, as we have seen in earlier installments of "Biblegod The Good", this isn't exactly the case. In this short essay, I'd like us to look at the question of slavery.

We all know that slavery is to be condemned as being inhumane, even Christians admit that. No human being should be owned by another for whatever reason. From the construction worker to the Phd., slavery is recognized for what it is: an abhorrent practice. However, the Bible, which is touted as "the" standard of morality by Christians, declares that slavery is not only acceptable, it is even commanded by the biblegod. Don't believe me? Read on. I will not quote the whole text here, because you can read it for yourselves. I quote from Young's Literal Translation:

Numbers 31:1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,
2 `Execute the vengeance of the sons of Israel against the Midianites -- afterwards thou art gathered unto thy people.'
[...]
9 And the sons of Israel take captive the women of Midian, and their infants; and all their cattle, and all their substance, and all their wealth they have plundered;
[...]
17 `And now, slay ye every male among the infants, yea, every woman known of man by the lying of a male ye have slain;
18 and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves.

To begin with, notice in v.9 that the Israelites are not simply told that they can take "captives" from among the Midianites, but are commanded to take "captives" from among them. They are to slaughter all the men, the male infants and all the women who had who had "known a man." Needless to say, we are impressed with the goodness of the biblegod ordering, as he did, the slaughter of all the male infants and the women who weren't virgins. Truly, biblegod's goodness knows no bounds!


The term "captives" in this context is the biblical code word for "slaves", and not simply someone who was captured. The Israelites were to take captive and enslave all the women who were virgins, icluding the female infants, and keep them as slaves. Anyone disputing this should take a course in basic reading. The meaning is quite clear.

In a time when we are painfully aware of slavery and its consequences, the Israelites didn't know--nor did they care--about the problems slavery causes to those enslaved and later to those who ensalve others. Now, since the Bible is held up as "the" standard of morality, one would expect that it would condemn rather than encourage slavery. Such, unfortunately, is not the case. One would also expect that a god who is supposed to be the epitome of goodness and mercy, would inform the Israelites as to the evils of slavery. Such is, not surprizingly, not the case.

Not a word is said in condemnation of slavery, not even a hint. In fact, as we can see from this passage YHWH, in his infinite goodness, commands the Israelites to take "captives", You see, if Israelites are to be considered slaves because they are taken into captivity by Babylonians, then it is only reasonable to think that the Midianites were slaves of the Israelite when they were taken captive.

Fundamentalists will often argue, in defense of the Bible, that God was merciful in giving laws to Israel concerning slavery. They point to the fact that a slave had to be released after seven years, and so on. Unfortunately, this only serves to confirm our contention that slavery was acceptable and a common practice in the OT, even though we know today that slavery is unacceptable. Moreover, noly the Isrealite slave was to be released after seven years, not the outsider. He belonged to his owner for as long as he lived and was given as an inheritence to his sons when he passed on.

Slavery in the NT
Some Christian will claim that the NT doesn't encourage slavery and that the teachings of Jesus even preclude the ownership of slaves. Well, I guess they'd have to tell that to Onesimus, the slave who belonged to Philemon. Paul, who is said to be the author of the epistle to Philemon, tells him that he will return his slave (servant in the KJV) to him, but that he should remember that Onesimus is a bother and should be treated fairly. This is all fine and well, but Onesimus is still a slave! Paul doesn't tell Philemon that slavery is immoral and that he should give it up and free his slave, his brother in Christ! Guess the Holy Ghost must've been having an off day and forgot to tell Paul what every Christian knows.

Christian will be the first on the anti-slavery bandwagon, for moral reasons, but they don't even see that their own scriptures encourage and sometimes even command slavery. There isn't on single verse in the NT that condemns slavery, in fact, slaves are commanded to obey their masters. (Eph. 6:5) Peter even goes as far as saying that slaves should be thankful if they suffer at the hands of their masters, because this is glorious.

1Peter 2:18 Servants [Greek "doulos"=slaves], be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

So, taking it patiently from your masters when you endure grief and suffer wrongfully, is acceptable to YHWH. He finds that this is a virtue. Boy, he must've been pissed off at all those Blacks in the last century who decided they wouldn't take it patiently. Moreover, this same god doesn't even condemn slavery when it comes to his own "children", the Israelites and then Christians like Philemon.

The teachings of Jesus, or rather those attributed to him, had changed nothing for 1st century slaves. People could still owned them, even one of their brethren. In fact, Jesus "the greatest moral teacher who ever lived," doesn't have diddly squat to say about the plight of slaves. None of the leaders, such as Peter, James, John or Paul, ever condemned the practice of owning another person and so condoned slavery implicitly. One would think that the "superior morality" of early Christianity would have seen to it that its supposed originator, Jesus, would have taught men to stop this immoral practice. Where was "sweet Jesus" when slaves were being bought and sold?

Christians, who never cease telling us that Atheists have no basis for morality, will defend a book that tells us of a practice that, while it should be condemned, is encouraged and even commanded by its god. Funny isn't it, that Atheists, who have "no basis for morality", condemn slavery, but that a book which is touted as being "the" standard of morality, not only doesn't condemn slavery, but encourages it; even commands it in certain instances. Will biblical wonders never cease? Hopefully, someday they will for the sake of us all.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
to the biblical version?


Uhm, depends on which passage from Deuteronomy you quote - since some passages prohibit killing/pillaging/needless destruction.

In any event, the Koran allows for Muslims to destroy trees. So I reject any hadith from Abu Bakr saying that Muslims should not destroy trees - it's completely permissible according to the Koran.

The Koran also allows pillaging, which is also a war crime.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
It is interesting that you don't deny you are more extreme a religous fanatic than Al Qaeda - but appear to be trying to recruit other numpties to your ideology - why else go to such lengths to justify the slaughter in the first post?

Are you proud to support this war crime?


shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:Nice attempt at diverting attention away from the topic in the thread titile and the fact you are the ONLY person who is condoning the enslavement of virgins by the Israelites.

You don't challenge the fact that this makes you MORE extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden - he just agrees with you that it is ok to kill civilians in the name of God.

I am glad you also are failing miserably to convince me to join your gang who think Israelites slaughtering civilians is an act of God.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
I just find it difficult to accept that there is a real difference between Allah ordering his followers to slay innocent civilians and God ordering the Israelites to do it.

Is there a difference? Apart from condemning the ones who carried out the actions, it is clear that Allah would have also approved of Moses' actions if he ordered the same level of destruction for his followers to carry out against disbelievers.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 12, 2010
Yes, you are quite clear about why you are more extreme in your views than Al Qaeda, I asked whether you accepted this fact and whether you were proud of being more radical than they are?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Do you accept you are more radical than Al Qaeda and are you proud of this?

shafique wrote:Yes, you are quite clear about why you are more extreme in your views than Al Qaeda, I asked whether you accepted this fact and whether you were proud of being more radical than they are?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Uhm, depends on which passage from Deuteronomy you quote - since some passages prohibit killing/pillaging/needless destruction.

Ordering to kill "infants" is such a strong statment that not another single passage in bible can supersede this.
In any event, the Koran allows for Muslims to destroy trees.

Nice attempt to slander..
This is what I can find in quran...
"Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills. (The Noble Quran, 22:18)"
The Koran also allows pillaging, which is also a war crime.

Really?
Numbers 31:1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,
2 `Execute the vengeance of the sons of Israel against the Midianites -- afterwards thou art gathered unto thy people.'
[...]
9 And the sons of Israel take captive the women of Midian, and their infants; and all their cattle, and all their substance, and all their wealth they have plundered;

Do you think pillaging in bible is a war Crime Eh?
I just find it difficult to accept that there is a real difference between Allah ordering his followers to slay innocent civilians and God ordering the Israelites to do it.

Eh do you think there is difference between an infant male and an adult male? My logic says to me is that while infant male's innocence is absolute,adult male's innocence can be questionable...
What sort of God is Bible God that cannot distinguish the right from wrong?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Good points Berrin.

However, what is unquestionable is that eh is the only one here who is condoning the enslavement of virgins for the use of the ones who slaughtered their families. This is done today in the name of religion by the "Lords Resistance Army" in Uganda - and eh insists these guys are Christian terrorists!

So, eh is more extreme in his fanaticism than Al Qaeda (for I haven't seen anywhere where they say it is ok to enslave virgins).

I asked eh whether he was proud of this fact - but I guess he has some sense of shame.

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Shafique
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Berrin, do yo agree or disagree that Allah gave specific commands to murder thousands of innocent women and children as recorded in the Koran?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Answer my question as per my statements..
You read the conditions under which God allowed his prophet to fight against truce brakers..
And noo God in Quran and the prophet of islam never ever allow fight against anything other than mischievous male adults.
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
So your Koran does not have Allah ordering the destruction of cities and the annihilation of its inhabitants?
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Re: Biblical war crimes Mar 14, 2010
Interesting the diversionary tactics of asking what the Quran says on the subject! The Quran doesn't condone the crimes committed by the Israelites - does it eh?

shafique wrote:However, what is unquestionable is that eh is the only one here who is condoning the enslavement of virgins for the use of the ones who slaughtered their families. This is done today in the name of religion by the "Lords Resistance Army" in Uganda - and eh insists these guys are Christian terrorists!

So, eh is more extreme in his fanaticism than Al Qaeda (for I haven't seen anywhere where they say it is ok to enslave virgins).

I asked eh whether he was proud of this fact - but I guess he has some sense of shame.


Are you proud you are more extreme than Bin Laden?
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