Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Berrin wrote:I now see what you're saying, yes full body can be covered by ordinary one piece dress or suit that is loose and not transparent , but that would restrict ladies choice of fashion and versatility,so if they opt for wearing outer garment then that would give them freedom to dress any way they like inside(i.e sleeveless blouse,shorter skirt etc.). So I guess we can also say that surah 33:59 was released to protect the rights of women for choice in privacy with their mahram.

That is not what I'm saying. Verse is not exactly about what to wear. I'll explain it later, if I can.

please...

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:01 pm ---

kanelli wrote:Berrin, it is nice to know that you feel that millions of men just can't help themselves to behave around women and that it is their natural instinct to se.xually harass women.

:) with exception of men who are pious and have taqwa http://islamicinsights.com/religion/rel ... taqwa.html

kanelli wrote:I am often finding men in public attractive. Maybe I should start se.xually harassing them? They'd deserve it, because it is their fault that I found them attractive.

If you are an atheist I think you should, go on lady, go and get them as many as you could please, if he too is an atheist then it is double bingo don forget your only chance of pleasure is what you have here in this world, you don't even know if you're gonna last until tomorrow, so go out now, start hunting and never stop, will you!

So the truth hurts our atheists.. hmmmm I see..

Berrin wrote: If you are an atheist I think you should, go on lady, go and get them as many as you could please, if he too is an atheist then it is double bingo don forget your only chance of pleasure is what you have here in this world, you don't even know if you're gonna last until tomorrow, so go out now, start hunting and never stop, will you!

That is rude.

Nucleus wrote:That is rudeo

Don't worry bro, I know what I am doing. Sometimes if you try to be polite by caring too much of political correctness, you can get nowhere, explaining the same thing in different forms each time,only to get back to square one again. So sometimes it's good to be bold to pinpoint truth in the realm of the two belief systems.(i.e. belief(islam) and disbelief(atheism). I am trying to add sense of humor as much as I could while english being my foreign language:). and I admit that it is diffucult in another language:)

Imagine this scenario - Some women run around and drug good looking men and anally rape them. It would be their fault because they tempted women to do it, right? When the men go to the police station to report the crime, the police can ask, "Are you married?" "What were you doing out in public by yourself?" "What were you wearing?"

Berrin, what does atheism have to do with this?

And by the way, I'm an atheist who doesn't cover all of my skin and I have only ever slept with my husband. I know of a couple of Muslim ladies who wear an abaya and headscarf who had anal and oral se.x with men they were interested in. I even know one who was pregnant out of wedlock but has no child now... Does clothing really determine who is more virtuous?

kanelli wrote:Imagine this scenario - Some women run around and drug good looking men and anally rape them. It would be their fault because they tempted women to do it, right?

No it won't be their fault.

As for my wallet analogy I'll make it simple.
(1) If I openly display it with lots of money in it and somebody grabs it and steals it. Theft is still a crime and should be punished accordingly; it is not my fault but would be considered stupid display it that way if there were chances of somebody stealing it.

(2) Most people are not theifs, and won't steal it but probably there might be few. Not displaying it so openly is just being careful. Depends from place to place, in Dubai it may not get grabbed and stolen, but in Congo, I would probably get killed.

(3) Being careful and a theif stealing the wallet are essentially two separate issues, but most people mix them up since most people expect a person to be careful. For example, if somebody leaves keys in the car and it gets stolen, some people in even blame the person for leaving keys in the car, but it doesn't make it less of a crime.

Any disagreement there?

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:18 pm ---

kanelli wrote:Does clothing really determine who is more virtuous?

Clothing doesn't but if somebody is dressed like a hoochie what would most people think?

USA has one of the highest rates of rapes, why is that?

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:23 pm ---

European wrote:You appear to be saying that if you show your wallet full of money, expect to have it stolen.

Is that correct?

No.

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:44 pm ---

Berrin wrote:Don't worry bro, I know what I am doing.

To be frank, I see it as unbecoming.

kanelli wrote:Imagine this scenario - Some women run around and drug good looking men and anally rape them.

This is not really rape this is torture without limits with the help of crime substance,.. a woman cannot rape a man,and your scenario has nothing to do with conventional rape where a woman victim is specifically chosen for bodily pleasure of man.

kanelli wrote:Berrin, what does atheism have to do with this?

Well one can only commit such crime if fears no authority either in this or the next world. Besides this, while a comitted believer would prevent him/herself from all sorts of bad behaviour due to responsibility, atheists on the other hand may fear nothing at all since they'd recognise no authority over themselves as they have very limited time and sources in this world.

kanelli wrote:And by the way, I'm an atheist who doesn't cover all of my skin and I have only ever slept with my husband.

fine, I am not saying atheists cannot stick to moral standards, there are many of them who are better then so called pious people but what I am saying is that without the religion atheists have no grounds/rationality to explain their morality in this world as their time and money is limited for what they can do before they die. Do you see my point of view?

kanelli wrote:Does clothing really determine who is more virtuous?

No it doesn't, what I can say is that other then it is being the order of Allah, it also helps protection against some people that may have intentions to hurt you,... clothing does not necessarily explain that whoever dresses modest is a pious person with taqwa... You can be conservative but not strictly following the principles/binding duties of religion.

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:16 pm ---

Nucleus wrote:To be frank, I see it as unbecoming.

I do not accept your alteration. I accept the fact that I am a fruitcake. Then all I can say is that you tell me why you like or hate the taste so that I can improve it next time.. But this is a forum where people debate, you should be prepared both for bad and good taste..

Berrin wrote:please...

Hypocrites used to harass muslim women (maybe on purpose) and when brought to questioning they used to say something along the lines that they thought they were prostitutes. To shut them up and make a clear distinction this verse was revealed. Next verse gives little more background:
If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbours but a little while.[Quran 33:60]

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:20 pm ---

Berrin wrote:I do not accept your alteration. I accept the fact that I am a fruitcake.

Fruitcake was rude, I don't usually say such things. Unbecoming is more appropiate.

Berrin wrote: Then all I can say is that you tell me why you like or hate the taste so that I can improve it next time.

I told you it was rude, take a break, then come back and read what you wrote yourself. Maybe it will make you understand what I'm trying to say here. Or somebody else can explain it with better articulation.

And what has this verse got to do with our chatter and how do you think I am harassing ladies here. First according to your sample verse I am not talking to a believing lady here, on the contrary a disbelieving lady is trying make her argument while I debate her in the light of my understanding of religion. I myself can't see anything wrong in this, you have to be very specific so that I can see your point of view..

Berrin wrote:

Nucleus wrote:That is rudeo

Don't worry bro, I know what I am doing. Sometimes if you try to be polite by caring too much of political correctness, you can get nowhere, explaining the same thing in different forms each time,only to get back to square one again. So sometimes it's good to be bold to pinpoint truth in the realm of the two belief systems.(i.e. belief(islam) and disbelief(atheism). I am trying to add sense of humor as much as I could while english being my foreign language:). and I admit that it is diffucult in another language:)

Mmmmmm. Rantings are very familiar from a few months ago.

The money exchanging must be quite.

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:41 pm ---

European wrote:Nucleus, It would appear that you are saying that men can help themselves to anything on show. That's very worrying. That would explain why Muslim men think they can help themselves to vunerable young white girls in my country.

Looking from a professional perspective, perhaps Nucs had an experience as a little boy that sticks firmly in his mind. This can often drive the individual to seek some sort of revenge with the weakest individual which in this case would be female.

This is not an alleged statement but only an analysis point of view.

Nucleus wrote:I told you it was rude, take a break, then come back and read what you wrote yourself.

Have you heard any of these in writing.... http://www.bookchums.com/blog-detail/wr ... /MjMx.html

Berrin wrote:And what has this verse got to do with our chatter and how do you think I am harassing ladies here.

I'm giving the histotical context of that verse, like I said verse isn't exactly about dress code but it is addressing specific situation created by the hypocrites at that time for muslim women.

Please go back and go through the posts again, see context of that post.

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:54 pm ---

Berrin wrote:Have you heard any of these in writing....

Good luck with your humor, imo, it is not ideal in these kinds of discussions, but you are entitled to your opinion. I guess you fit right in with BM and co, although I had higher hopes for you.

European wrote:Muslims are rarely funny Nucleaus.

--- Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:04 am ---

It is disturbing that 4 (maybe just 2) people couldn't answer the analogy without making abscure reference to rape; Berrin, took the verse personally on himself; 1 or more hypocritical about complains while they themselves are racist and phobic... wow, just wow! Talk about people with issues.

--- Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:24 pm ---

Berrin wrote:a woman cannot rape a man

http://femalesexoffenders.com/fso/

Nucleus wrote: kanelli wrote:Imagine this scenario - Some women run around and drug good looking men and anally rape them. It would be their fault because they tempted women to do it, right?

No it won't be their fault.

As for my wallet analogy I'll make it simple.
(1) If I openly display it with lots of money in it and somebody grabs it and steals it. Theft is still a crime and should be punished accordingly; it is not my fault but would be considered stupid display it that way if there were chances of somebody stealing it.

(2) Most people are not theifs, and won't steal it but probably there might be few. Not displaying it so openly is just being careful. Depends from place to place, in Dubai it may not get grabbed and stolen, but in Congo, I would probably get killed.

(3) Being careful and a theif stealing the wallet are essentially two separate issues, but most people mix them up since most people expect a person to be careful. For example, if somebody leaves keys in the car and it gets stolen, some people in even blame the person for leaving keys in the car, but it doesn't make it less of a crime.

Any disagreement there?

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:18 pm ---

kanelli wrote:Does clothing really determine who is more virtuous?

Clothing doesn't but if somebody is dressed like a hoochie what would most people think?

USA has one of the highest rates of rapes, why is that?

--- Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:23 pm ---

European wrote:You appear to be saying that if you show your wallet full of money, expect to have it stolen.

Is that correct?

No.

Women are regularly blamed for their own harassment and rape. "She put it all on display." "She was walking in the wrong place/alone." If the bar is set that a woman who shows her face, hands and feet is not covering herself enough to protect her virtue, that means that any woman not draped in a sheet deserves what she gets. Right?

If one looks at rape, the vast majority of rapes happen by someone the woman knows. The dangerous stranger on the street makes up only a small percentage of rapes. Women get raped by family members, friends/known people , and dates. In the date cases, alcohol is often involved. So it would make more sense for women not to drink heavily and be cautious about being alone with their date. As for family members and friends/known people, it is hard to protect a woman from those people isn't it. The solution is not to make all women in society drape themselves in a sheet. According to psychologists, rape isn't about se.xual desire, more about violence, which explains why women of various dressing styles, ages, religions etc. are raped around the world. Changing how women dress does not solve the problem of rape.

I see men walking around with nothing but a pair of shorts and shoes in the summer. Is that them dressing like a hoochie? Is there a special way I should be treating them? If there is a really good looking guy I look discretely and that's as far it is or would ever go. In any one person in public I can find something attractive. Maybe someone has stunning eyes, or a fantastic smile. Women are attracted to men just as much as men are attracted to women, yet the women are the ones who must bear the burden of draping themselves in a sheet and the men can wear whatever they like. This is illogical and unfair.

I hear what you say kanelli and I am in total agreement with you that rape is a crime that is wholly and unequivocably the fault of the rapist. Being modestly or immodestly dressed in the eye of the rapist is not an excuse. I join you in condemning anyone that blames the victims of rapists, and would extend that to all forms of abuse of women - it is not the victim's fault.

The Islamic injunction for men and women to dress modestly is actually preceded (IIRC) with instructions that believers should cast down their gazes - i.e. restrain themselves.

All religions and moral codes say that it is wrong to rape and abuse women. No ifs, no buts, no way.

Cheers,

Shafique

But we have men here saying that if you put something on display it will of course be taken, so you shouldn't put it on display. In practice I see Muslim women covering much of their bodies while their husbands are wearing shorts and t-shirts. There is double standard happening here. For women to go as far as wearing a veil and covering their hands and feet - it is too much and sets a ridiculous standard in society. As the facts show, how people conduct themselves is more significant than clothing being worn by anyone. And I don't think anyone can say what brings a person closer to god, but if it was draping in a sheet and wearing gloves, why aren't the men doing it too?

kanelli wrote:But we have men here saying that if you put something on display it will of course be taken, so you shouldn't put it on display.

We have racists, Islamophobes, misogynists and supporters of religiously motivated terrorism posting here - I was just saying I agreed with your views on anyone blaming rape victims.

The case for modesty in dress can be made without blaming any victims of rape or any other violence against women.

Cheers,

Shafique

I agree Shaf, but perhaps I'd like to see Muslims stop fellow Muslim women from feeling that they should cover their faces in public, especially when it is founded on false logic and supports a male chauvenist view of women and piety. I'd also like to see more discussion on modesty on the part of men.

I agree.

All who choose to cover their faces should do so under no coercion. The women in the article I linked to said they knew it wasn't compulsory, but they chose to do so.

Muslim men forcing women to wear a face veil is wrong.

Cheers,

Shafique

In my view, Muslim men should be telling their Muslim women-folk that wearing a veil in not necessary according to the Quran or for society's sense of what is virtous and what isn't.

In my view, the women shouldn't be relying on the men to tell them what to do in the first place! (And yes, I agree that men should also tell the women the truth about what Islam teaches too)

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:Women are regularly blamed for their own harassment and rape. "She put it all on display." "She was walking in the wrong place/alone." If the bar is set that a woman who shows her face, hands and feet is not covering herself enough to protect her virtue, that means that any woman not draped in a sheet deserves what she gets. Right?

Wrong. I'm not blaming for their own harassment and rape. And that is what is difficult for me to understand, how my wallet analogy is interpreted into supporting rape. First, rape was not in my mind, it was a simple example when a person does something silly but not really can't be blamed for theft. Second, the reaction makes me believe people would have actually blamed me in that situation, which is wrong.

kanelli wrote:I see men walking around with nothing but a pair of shorts and shoes in the summer. Is that them dressing like a hoochie?

That is not normally considered hoochie for men. Not sure why, maybe you can explain it to me. But if I feel I can get harassed walking like that than I won't walk like that, it is just common sense. I doubt women can physically harass me, but granny here is scary.

And this is not blaming the victim, unless you believe not being cautious some how tantamount to getting what the person deserves.

--- Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:43 pm ---

kanelli wrote:In my view, Muslim men should be telling their Muslim women-folk that wearing a veil in not necessary according to the Quran or for society's sense of what is virtous and what isn't.

If they are forced to then it is wrong, but many women do it by their choice and even argue about it. I had cpl of discussion with such women online, they pretty much didn't wanted to hear that veil is not mentioned in Quran. I had noting against them, if they prefered to wear veil, it is their choice, but they were claiming it is said in the Quran to wear veil. My point is to you it is something else, and to them it is something else. I wish there were no biases, but I notice each have their own bias and impose what they feel right on others. If you find a women who choose to wear veil and knows english well, I suggest better talk to her directly, talking with men on these issues is pointless. Some support it, some are indifferent, and some against it.

Here is a BBC report:

jackpott wrote:Nobody deserves to get rapes.

English please.

European ,

How may times are you going to pull that ONE out of the bag to justify your MULTIPLE errors??

jackpott wrote:Nobody deserves to get rapes.

Where did I say anybody deserves that? Learn to read please, moron!

European wrote:I agree I do make the odd spelling mistake, not any more than the next person. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You really shouldn't critise people's English, when English may or may not be their first language when you, yourself, don't know that the muliple of sheep is not sheeps. Even primary school children know that.

There you go - again. Justifying your own mistakes as errors, yet pointing out my typo is due to a lack of understanding. Nothing new there - double standards as usual.

I don't critize people where English isn't their first language, unlike some on DF. In your case, there is no question that English is your only language.

shafique wrote:In my view, the women shouldn't be relying on the men to tell them what to do in the first place! (And yes, I agree that men should also tell the women the truth about what Islam teaches too)

But Muslim women do rely on what their Imam, husbands and fathers say about how they dress. I had a coworker who got married and then banned his wife from wearing a swimsuit ever again. He'd probably be thrilled if she wore a burka. Men like to say it is all about choice, so long as the choice doesn't go against their wishes.