Terrorism In EU - The Facts

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Re: Terrorism in EU - the facts Dec 30, 2010
Bump - as this is now being accused of being 'misleading' for apparently counting all the terrorist attacks (bombings etc) that non-Muslims undertook in EU. :roll:

Here's the commentary on the report in the OP -still relevant today:

Perception is not reality. Due to the right wing’s influence and propaganda, people mistakenly think that
Islamic terrorism is the greatest threat to the Western world. It is even a commonly held belief that Islamic terrorism poses an existential threat–that the very survival of the Western world is at stake. Of course, the reality is that there are other groups that engage in terrorism on a much larger scale, yet these terrorist incidents are minimized. Acts of terrorism committed by Muslims are purposefully sensationalized and focused upon, culminating in the idea that “(nearly) all terrorists are Muslims.”

Terrorism from Islamic extremists is certainly a cause for concern, but it need not be an issue that creates mass hysteria. Nor should it be allowed to be such a critical issue that we are willing to sacrifice our ideals or civil rights for fear of it. Neither should we be reduced to a status of absolute sissitude. We have analyzed data from America and Europe (a good portion of the entire Western world), and the threat from Islamic terrorism is much more minimal than commonly assumed; in the U.S., it accounts for 6% of terrorist attacks, and in Europe not even half of a percent.

It is only through sensationalism and fear mongering that the topic of Islamic terrorism is allowed to be used to demonize a religious community that happens to be a minority in the West. When confronted by such lunacy, we ought to respond with the facts and the truth.


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Shafique

shafique
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Re: Terrorism in EU - the facts Dec 30, 2010
This report is totally contradicted by the secret cables (exposed by wikileaks ) between counter terrorist experts and diplomats, in which they state that the number ONE terrorist threat is ISLAMIC.
http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2006/11/06PARIS7579.html
Instead of trying to convince everybody that it is not true why dont you try to convince your fellow muslims brothers to renounce to blow themselves up and killing innocent westerners.
herve
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
Cables vs Statistics listing the attacks and a clear conclusion.

You're right though - one of them is wrong.

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Shafique
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
shafique wrote:Cables vs Statistics listing the attacks and a clear conclusion.

You're right though - one of them is wrong.

Cheers,
Shafique

These cables are true, intercept of actual conversations, in the intelligence community that is rated A1.
Statistics are always subject to interpretation and rated D or F if i remember.
So are You saying that these diplomats and counter terrorists experts are wrong, and have a distorded perception?
herve
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
One of them is wrong.

I've no evidence that the statistics are missing loads of Islamist terror attacks that were kept secret, or that they invented the real bomb blasts carried out by ETA etc.

When in doubt, I trust the evidence over the perceptions/marketing/hype. But that is just me.

It won't be the first time in recent (and ancient) history that diplomats have spun the facts to sensationalise the latest 'fashionable' risk. WMD in Iraq for example.

Herve - provide me with actual evidence that the risk isn't being sensationalised, and I will (I promise) change my view. I don't think I can be fairer than that.

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Shafique
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
shafique wrote:One of them is wrong.

I've no evidence that the statistics are missing loads of Islamist terror attacks that were kept secret, or that they invented the real bomb blasts carried out by ETA etc.

When in doubt, I trust the evidence over the perceptions/marketing/hype. But that is just me.

It won't be the first time in recent (and ancient) history that diplomats have spun the facts to sensationalise the latest 'fashionable' risk. WMD in Iraq for example.

Herve - provide me with actual evidence that the risk isn't being sensationalised, and I will (I promise) change my view. I don't think I can be fairer than that.

Cheers,
Shafique

Stating that counter terrorist experts are wrong is pretty arrogant of you shafique, but it does not surprise me. You are Muslim and you defend your botherhood. In the end it does not matter, they and you will lose, whatever you say is insignificant because experts are right and they are doing their job, they catch or kill these bastards before they strike. Many time it does not even make the news, and i can speak for myself.
And you are wrong with the WMD, it is not the diplomats or the experts who have spun the facts.
Your mistake is to take a list of attacks under the same label (terrorist) when they are not. Expert do not make that mistake.
Expert know the difference, knowing the difference allows them to anticipate and fight accordingly the guys who follow Islamic leadership on their way to kill 200 people, versus the isolated weirdos who have decided to blow up the mail box of the head of the local shopping mall.
If they did not and followed your recommendations, which is to go after the red neck teen trash can bombers, a hell lot more people would die in plane crashes.
herve
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
Hey, I've been called worse things than arrogant - but as I said, either Europol is wrong or the wikileak cable is wrong.

It is a choice - I'm going with the one with the evidence and the conclusions based on evidence.

As I said, provide new evidence and I promise I'll reconsider my views.

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Shafique
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Re: Terrorism in EU - the facts Dec 30, 2010
Europol recognizes the difference between firing crackers in a trash bin and a terrorist attack trying to cause maximum casualties:

Altogether 498 terrorist attacks were committed
in the EU in 2006.The vast majority of
them resulted in limited material damage
and were not intended to kill. However, the
failed attack in Germany demonstrates that
Islamist terrorists also aim at mass casualties.


Therefore the prio of Europol is:

Investigations into Islamist terrorism are
clearly a priority for Member States’ law enforcement
as demonstrated by the number of arrested
suspects reported by Member States.


I agree that investigations into trying to blow up part of the port of Rotterdam should get priority over environmentalists slicing car tires (although that is also very annoying).
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
Yes, as I pointed out in the other thread though - the 99% of terrorist acts carried out by Non-Muslims include major bombs that did kill people and were intended to kill mass casualties - just look at the two examples of ETA bombings in Spain on 29 and 30 July 2010.
dubai-politics-talk/denmark-foils-terror-attack-t44702-15.html#p360487

And by the same token, the majority of so-called Jihadist plots are pretty much amateur-night anarchist handbook, Tim McVeigh wannabes or entrapment by agent provocateurs. But the Europol stats do show actual terrorist attacks and the stats are clear.

The conclusion in Europol report about perception vs reality therefore is backed up by the stats.

Let me repeat, the conclusion is Europol's words not mine.

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Shafique
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Re: Terrorism in EU - the facts Dec 30, 2010
During 2008, 359 individuals were tried on terrorism
charges in the member states in a total of
187 proceedings. Of 384 verdicts which were
pronounced in 2008, 50 percent were related to
Islamist terrorism
, and 39 percent to separatist
terrorism.

In the UK, Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands,
the vast majority of verdicts were linked to
Islamist terrorism
Flying Dutchman
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Re: Terrorism In EU - The Facts Dec 30, 2010
I read it the first time.

That just goes to show that the proportions of the numpties that get caught/entraapped etc. The stats about the actual terrorist attacks still stand - 99% are not from Muslim terrorists.

Verdicts vs actual attacks. Given that there were more than one verdict per trial, we should also look at the breakdown of people convicted (Islamists vs Separatists) and what they were convicted for. See how many actually were in danger of committing acts of terrorism.

Also, verdicts don't mean all were guilty - 29% or 112 were aquittals - and:
Court proceedings in relation to Islamist terrorism had, as in 2007, the highest acquittal rate (34 percent)


Also, look at 5.2 relating to arrests:
Of the 1009 persons that, according to information from the member states, were arrested in the EU in 2008 on suspicion of involvement in terrorism, 187 were arrested in relation to Islamist terrorism.T


81% of those arrested were not Muslim terrorists! (Full stats given in Annex 5 - 501 arrests were separatist arrests - 49.6% of the total arrested.)

And of those arrested:
However, two thirds of the individuals arrested on suspicion of involvement in Islamist terrorism could not be linked to terrorist organisations known to the authorities.


I.e. lone numpties.

But as I keep saying, Europol compiled the report and gave the conclusion I quoted. They were aware of the other parts of their report when they concluded what they did.

Indeed the point is repeated in section 6:
Separatist terrorism remains the area of terrorism which affects the EU most. Four persons died in attacks committed by ETA in 2008.

■ A total of 397 separatist terrorist attacks were perpetrated; 501 suspects were arrested. The number of attacks decreased in 2008 by 25 percent in comparison to 2007, thereby reaching the level of 2006


And I didn't post this graph first time round... but given the recent thread about pie charts... let's have a look at the stats graphically:

Image

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Shafique
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