Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The US

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Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the US Aug 08, 2011
I watched a segment on Al Maleki who, in the name of honor, murdered his daughter in 2009, in Arizona (US) by running her down with his car, along with another person who survived. He made the statement to the police that family law was above state law. He said he would rather spend his life in jail to keep his honor. He was handed down a sentence of 34-1/2 years for murder in the second degree, along with other charges, whereas he would have be set free in Iraq and recognized for doing the right thing - protecting family honor. The judge refused to label it an honor killing - he classified it as murder.

Based on this article, the US justice system is going to have to learn about this import and treat those who commit an honor killing for what it is - first degree murder.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/05/qu ... r-killing/

The United Nations has found that honor killings are all too common in Islamic countries. A number of recent assaults in the U.S. have some in law enforcement worried the practice may be spreading to America.


Due to the misclassification and lack of awareness and knowledge about honor killings, the number of honor killings are obviously are higher.

Very interesting article out of Canada as a result of a honor killing that took place at the end of July. The US and Canada were classifying honor killings under domestic violence, which would raise the number of honor killings that actually took place due to the classification of "domestic violence".

http://wdfyfe.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/ ... nd-murder/

Last week, a man walked into a local newspaper with a weapon. He found his estranged wife, who worked there, and stabbed her several times. She died at the scene of the crime, and he was arrested. The murder was witnessed by a number of people, including one guy who suffered minor injuries when he tried to intervene. It all seems totally straightforward to me. However, unlike the majority of big city murders, which don’t usually survive the 48 hour urban news cycle, people are still talking about this one. In fact, a local open line radio program speculated whether or not the victim had actually provoked the attack. Interesting. The difference between this and most of the other homicides around town is the media is reporting it as one of the growing number of Canadian “honour killings.”

There has been much debate recently about honour killing. Unfortunately, the discussion has been hijacked by questions of immigration and cultural rights. This woulda/coulda/shoulda talk has tied our hands and diverted our attention from dealing with the problem effectively. However, if we look at the situation in a critical, objective manner we can put a stop to what’s becoming a recurring social problem before it really gets started.

The hideous thing about “honour killing” is that it now occurs so frequently in our society that we’ve imported a name for it. It’s almost as though we consider it a subset of the act of murder. This is not good: it presupposes acceptance. Although we must now give honour killing a separate identity among all the other heinous acts that plague us, it is a grave mistake to think of it as anything less than premeditated murder. If we do, we run the risk of psychologically giving it a mitigating circumstance which will only hamper our ability to deal with it.

Furthermore, we are at odds with ourselves over the nature of this form of violence against women. We must clarify. The erroneous assumption is that honour killings are just pumped-up domestic violence. That is not true. Human Rights Watch defines honour killings as:

…acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that “dishonors” her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life. (“Honor Killing,” Wikipedia)

This is a very specific definition which shows us that honour killings differ substantially from domestic violence in two key ways. First of all, honour killings are premeditated, perpetrated by what would be considered normal, peaceful people – a spike of violence, if you will. On the other hand, statistics show that most domestic violence cases, especially those resulting in death, are the culmination of escalating episodes of abuse and brutality, usually accelerated by alcohol and/or drugs. Secondly, honour killings are aggregated acts. In almost every instance, they have the tacit — if not the active — approval of at least one other family member. Conversely, the vast majority of documented cases of domestic violence involve a single person, normally a husband or a boyfriend, who acts alone, usually in secret. As we can see, honour killing and domestic violence are two different animals that must be dealt with separately.

Finally, whether we like it or not, honour killing has a cultural base. We must face this fact straight on. We can’t slip/slide around, trying to fool ourselves. At the same time, however, we must understand that just because we recognize cultural differences; that doesn’t mean the door is open to racism or cultural intolerance. In fact, just the opposite. These are Canadian women who are being killed – make no mistake – and they’re under the protection of our entire society. We cannot lay the blame at the feet of “those people;” those people are us.

So where do we go to from here? Zero tolerance. We need to quit muddying the water with useless chatter. The debate is about murder, not government policy, immigration or cultural insensitivity. We also need to stop making false assumptions. Honour killing is a new and different phenomenon which we’ve never had to deal with, in large numbers, before. We need to remember that. Finally, and most importantly, we need to quit conjuring up tippy-toe solutions. It must be perfectly clear: Canadians, old and new, do not tolerate murder, regardless of the circumstances or what the media calls it. This is non-negotiable, and our penalties must reflect the seriousness of the crime. We have been warned. Nationally, there have been over fifteen recognizable [honour killings] murders in the last few years. The time to stop these horrible crimes was yesterday.

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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 08, 2011
There is no honor in these killings and the only thing these idiots care about is the " what will they say " syndrome i.e what will they neighbours say, your daughter ran away with so and so and to shut these people up they have to resort to these so called honour killings to keep up the fake facade of a respectable man/family/etc etc basically false pride and mostly its in their own mind and reality.

I despise and condemn anyone who kills a family member to save one "honor". Unfortunately these outdated ancient customs still infect many in the region, knowing no cast, creed or religion.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
Absolutely no justification for honour killings in any religion. It is a cultural phenomenon that is wrapped up in religion and honour in a number of different cultures - happens amongst Hindus, Sikhs and indeed in Latin America. Yes, there are indeed some Muslims who carry out these crimes - from Kurds to some rural-minded Pakistanis.

No excuse for any of them - but as DDS says, it is not a crime related or isolated in any one religion or tribe.

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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
shafique wrote:Absolutely no justification for honour killings in any religion. It is a cultural phenomenon that is wrapped up in religion and honour in a number of different cultures - happens amongst Hindus, Sikhs and indeed in Latin America. Yes, there are indeed some Muslims who carry out these crimes - from Kurds to some rural-minded Pakistanis.

No excuse for any of them - but as DDS says, it is not a crime related or isolated in any one religion or tribe.

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It's a new phenomenon in the US and Canada, so I would say that Christians, Jews and Protestants, the 3 major religions in the US, "honor killings" as they are known, was/is not a common or acceptable practice amongst those religions. It's definitely something that is known to be widely practiced in the Middle East and Asian countries, as well as other countries where it is accepted. Like I said in an earlier debate we had on this subject, it's a new import to the US and Canada, which is the point of the thread, not countries where it is common practice.

Aren't Kurds and "rural-minded" Pakistanis Muslims? When you say "some Muslims" carry out these crimes is that to say that other religions/cultures outnumber Muslims where honor killings are concerned? To be honest, my only concern is what appears to be a cancer invading the US, not in countries that find honor killing acceptable.

Honor killings have been committed by Muslims in countries where such acts were probably classified as crimes of passion or domestic violence, such as Great Britain, Italy, Sweden, the US, Canada, and now these countries are coming to learn that these crimes are not a result of passion or violence, but about so-called honor. Maybe there are Hindus and Sikhs carrying out such crimes in the US and Canada (and other western countries) because of misclassification of the crime, but I doubt they out number the Muslims. It makes me wonder how many girls were reported as "runaways" and are buried in the backyard or a ditch? How many of these girls "returned" to their country? How many were reported as suicides and were actually murdered? There are more "honor killings" out there than people know of - and I'm talking about the US and Canada.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
Hindus, Sikhs and indeed Latin Americans etc are indeed carrying out honour (honor) killings in the West too - but the point I was making was that it is not a Muslim problem, but rather a cultural problem.

Rural-minded Pakistanis are not necessarily following Islamic laws - the tribal areas have their own honour code that falls outside of Islam, for example. Similarly for Kurds and their cultural practices. (And I mentioned Kurds and rural-minded Pakistanis as examples from within the Muslim community, so I think your question is moot - they are Muslims).

If the numbers are increasing (even if it is just better reporting) - I think it is good to highlight and educate the fact that there is no religious (or other) justification for these crimes. The Muslim community has been quite good to make this categorically clear.

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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
Hindus, Sikhs and indeed Latin Americans etc are indeed carrying out honour (honor) killings in the West too - but the point I was making was that it is not a Muslim problem, but rather a cultural problem.


Not a Muslim problem, but cultural? Then lets just say that the culture responsible for honor killings just happen to be Muslim.

Rural-minded Pakistanis are not necessarily following Islamic laws - the tribal areas have their own honour code that falls outside of Islam, for example. Similarly for Kurds and their cultural practices. (And I mentioned Kurds and rural-minded Pakistanis as examples from within the Muslim community, so I think your question is moot - they are Muslims).


Shaf, once again, this thread is about honor killing taking place in the US and Canada, where honor killings are a new import, NOT countries where it has existed for ages as an accceptable practice. Is it just a coincidence that those countries are considered Muslim countries by virtue of the fact that the majority are Muslim? Arabs from Muslim countries, Pakistanis and Iranians are different cultures, yet they share the cultural practice that honor killing is acceptable?

If the numbers are increasing (even if it is just better reporting) - I think it is good to highlight and educate the fact that there is no religious (or other) justification for these crimes. The Muslim community has been quite good to make this categorically clear.


Civilized people know that there is no justification for honor killing, regardless of culture or religion. You have other religions and cultures who are speaking out and comdemning such acts, but not in their defense nor are honor killings part of their culture or religion. If the Muslim community has a louder voice maybe it has something to do with the fact that up to now it has been Muslims committing such acts - in the US and Canada.

There are many "traditions" carried out that are not religious, but are committed from a cultural mindset. But you seem to refuse to acknowledge that it is generally Muslims that carry out such atrocities in the US and Canada.
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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 09, 2011
I'm also making my point quite simply.

Let me make it more point blankly - all the honour killings in the USA and Canada go against the teachings of Islam. This is clear from any Muslim cleric in the USA and Canada who has spoken on the subject.

The fact that it is a cultural problem doesn't excuse the crime in any way. That some are confusing it with it being a 'Muslim problem' is not in question - and indeed I agree that Muslims should be in the forefront of exposing and stopping this crime.

I repeat, it is not only Muslims carrying out this practice and even when they do - they are a criminal minority of Muslims.

The Muslim community IS indeed speaking out clearly and loudly on this. Within Pakistan there is much that is said about the tribal regions and their archaic practices, for example.

But on the question of honour killings - there are no ifs, buts or maybes. It is unIslamic and clearly a crime.

Same goes for instances of Hindus, Sikhs, Latins etc who commit the same crime IN THE WEST for the same cultural reasons.

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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
I'll have to disagree with you there, honor killings are not unknown within the Hindu and Sikh community and although I did look it up or have any stats but from what I can remember reading. The number of honor killings in Canada are mostly by non muslims.

So branding honor killings as only a muslim thing is absolutely wrong.

Here is something worth reading about the subject

http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/ ... 0Ishaq.pdf
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:I'll have to disagree with you there, honor killings are not unknown within the Hindu and Sikh community and although I did look it up or have any stats but from what I can remember reading. The number of honor killings in Canada are mostly by non muslims.

So branding honor killings as only a muslim thing is absolutely wrong.

Here is something worth reading about the subject

http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/ ... 0Ishaq.pdf


First thing I noticed when I opened the document is that it is a thesis, a requirement to obtain certain degrees and do not necessarily get a passing mark. Very, very few get published and recognized.

The first sentence, IMO, was incomplete, and if not, the definition of a honor killing has been expanded further to justify the act. "Honour Killing‖ is defined as the act of killing a person, usually a female relative (i.e. daughter, wife), who is taught to have brought dishonour to the family by engaging in ―unacceptable‖ sexual behaviours." From what I have read none of those committed in the US or Canada were based on unacceptable sexual behavior but rather lesser "crimes": the girl was becoming too "westernized", girl was dating outside her religion/ethnicity, girl was not covering, girl refused arranged marriage, girl got a part time job, wife wanted a divorce from abusive husband.

OK, I will concede to honor killings being cultural, but this culture generally exists in Muslim countries. :D

I also notice is that the focus is on South East Asians "...the term [South East Asian] refers to people coming from a great diversity of ethnic backgrounds including India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka (Israel, 1987)" I guess I just learned something: Israelis were considered South Asian until 1987? :o

It appears that her case studies were of Sikhs who committed honor killings. She took 5 of the 15 honor killings that were on record.

Aside from Pakistan, are honor killings accepted in the culture of the other countries mentioned above?

Also note:
they have also been reported in immigrant host countries such as UK, Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, United States, and more recently in Canada.
Which is to say: honor killings are imported and new to countries where such accts of crime were unknown, or did not exist before the waves of immigrants into the countries.

Confirming what I said:
Even though according to Aruna Papp (2010), a social worker and family councillor in York Toronto, there has been around fifteen honour killing incidents since 2002, it is nevertheless difficult to tell exactly how many young women and girls have died for honour‘ sake in Canadian households.
The author also confirms what I said: honor killings are not acts of domestic violence or a crime of passion.

So, it is cultural, imported from certain countries where the practice is culturally accepted. It doesn't change the fact that it is a new import to the US and Canada and the number of honor killings is not known and probably exceed those on record. It also doesn't change the fact that honor killings can be identified belonging to certain cultures. And it is also my opinion that it appears that the majority are committed by Muslims.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
I have no problem saying the yes indeed honour killings is problem in muslim countries or communities because thats the truth, but calling it a exclusively their problem is far from the truth. Their have been many honour killings in places like India by non muslim, even Arab christians. India infact has a very high rate of honour killings, specially in the state of Punjab and majority are non muslims.

Just look up the victims of honour killings in N.America and you'll see non muslim crimes make up just about the same as muslims and if you look up the list for India you'll see the majority are non muslim.

And when you make a statment like "I will concede to honor killings being cultural, but this culture generally exists in Muslim countries." is just not true. Taking religion as a common factor among them and contributing this henious crime to it is just plain wrong.

Most of them have dark hair in the region aswell maybe that has also got something to do with this, see how weak that argument is ?
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 09, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:I have no problem saying the yes indeed honour killings is problem in muslim countries or communities because thats the truth, but calling it a exclusively their problem is far from the truth. Their have been many honour killings in places like India by non muslim, even Arab christians. India infact has a very high rate of honour killings, specially in the state of Punjab and majority are non muslims.

Just look up the victims of honour killings in N.America and you'll see non muslim crimes make up just about the same as muslims and if you look up the list for India you'll see the majority are non muslim.

And when you make a statment like "I will concede to honor killings being cultural, but this culture generally exists in Muslim countries." is just not true. Taking religion as a common factor among them and contributing this henious crime to it is just plain wrong.

Most of them have dark hair in the region aswell maybe that has also got something to do with this, see how weak that argument is ?


But they do have dark hair!!!! and mustaches (sign of manliness ?? D :D )

Dude, I'm not talking about India, Pakistan, etc. I'm talking about the US and Canada. Also, the numbers don't reflect any accuracy as, again, it's new to the US and Canada. I did not say honor killings are exclusive to Muslims, but more than likely committed by Muslims. The number of Muslims that migrated to the US is big.

From Wiki:
Once very small, the Muslim population of the US increased greatly in the 20th century, with much of the growth driven by rising immigration and conversion, and a comparatively high birth rate. In 2005, more people from Islamic countries became legal permanent United States residents — nearly 96,000 — than in any year in the previous two decades.

And the numbers continue to grow.

I found this article interesting. It appears to me that to relate Islam to the practice of honor killings is a fair assumption. I think crimes of this nature, along with bride burning and dowry death are culturely related and driven with a degree/basis of religious belief.

http://www.actnow.com.au/Issues/Honour_killings.aspx

‘Honour Killings’ is the name given to the practice when it occurs within an Islamic context. This does not mean that the phenomenon is limited to Islamic society, as the practice exists in other cultures and countries, such as India and Latin America, and is known by other names such as bride burnings and dowry deaths. It is worth noting that Honour Killings are not a ‘religious’ practice but are a cultural phenomenon.

Honour killings occur in both private and public settings, with public acts often either ignored by passers-by or even spurred on by group approval. Many public killings are the result of the decisions of tribal councils ordering retribution in this manner. Whilst women represent the majority of victims, men associated with women in acts of immorality sometimes receive the same punishment. Whilst serious, this is less common as men are sometimes given the opportunity to compensate and, as the woman is traditionally killed first, they have more of a chance to flee.

It is unclear how many people are victims of honour killings with some reports, such as from Amnesty, saying hundreds, and others, such as the National Geographic and UN, reporting in the thousands. Whilst it is acknowledged that there is a critical lack of statistics on honour killings [used in the Islamic context] there is consensus that the real figure is far greater than what is recorded. This is because families and authorities collectively act to cover up incidents, referring to deaths and abuse as suicides or accidents.

Honour killings are a global issue, with violence and killing in the name of honour being recorded in Afghanistan, Argentina, Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Denmark, Ecuador, Egypt, Germany, Guatemala, Holland, India, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, Palestine, Peru, Sweden, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, Venezuela and the West Bank. Despite this, the majority of honour killings occur in the Middle East, in Muslim settings. It is important to note that Islamic law and religion do not support the practice. The practice in fact has tribal roots which precede Islam and can be traced back to the Hammurabi and Assyrian tribes of 1200 B.C. It stems from a belief that women, like livestock and land, are the property of men, and that it is a man’s role to ensure a stable family structure. A woman’s virginal status is seen as both the property and responsibility of the man.

Why in the name of honour?

In some Islamic communities, the structure and status of the family are paramount to the condition of the society. Family status is directly linked to family honour, and family honour is directly linked to the female’s perceived moral integrity. This is a deep-rooted, long-standing aspect of the belief system amongst some Islamic communities.

Why aren’t women protected?

Whilst honour killings violate various rights outlined by the Declaration of Human Rights, legal systems in the countries where most honour killings occur allow for the practice to continue with no or minimal repercussions. These countries include Jordan, West Bank and Palestine. Other areas where the law makes some form of allowance are Argentina, Brazil, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Lebanon, Morocco, Peru, Syria, Turkey and Venezuela.

Whilst some countries make allowances for men who have killed close female relatives in the name of honour, others prescribe lighter sentences for such an act, with average sentences ranging from three months to a year. Many families avoid longer sentences by giving the task of murder to under-age men. Patriarchal legal structures make things hard for women who want to prosecute. For example, in Palestine, a woman’s case for rape is valid only if she is accompanied by an immediate male family member.

This is not to say that there is consensus about the practice in these countries. For example, King Abdullah II of Jordan has supported legislation that will outlaw honour killings. In taking this stance, he has inspired others who oppose honour killings to become stronger in their convictions.

Whilst women at risk could seek asylum in another country, a lack of education about the process, limited access to relevant authorities, lack of financial independence to do so and corruption within police systems all contribute to making escape difficult. In some instances, women who try to escape are found and killed.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 10, 2011
Again if you see in N.America it is still not exclusive to muslims and again you cannot atribute it to religon but the kind of back ground and social settings these people come from.

And from what I can recall about recent such cases in Canada its been mostly non muslims, I could be wrong on that but that whats I recall.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 10, 2011
desertdudeshj wrote:Again if you see in N.America it is still not exclusive to muslims and again you cannot atribute it to religon but the kind of back ground and social settings these people come from.

And from what I can recall about recent such cases in Canada its been mostly non muslims, I could be wrong on that but that whats I recall.


Again, I did NOT say it was exclusive to Muslims in North America. The background and social settings you speak of are cultures that were imported into a country where it is against the law and such act is considered murder and people who commit such crimes are not above the law.

It's no different than westerners bringing their "culture" to the UAE and getting arrested for it because certain aspects/behavior of western culture are not acceptable and can get one arrested as such behavior is deemed against the laws of the land. Leave it where you came from and don't bring it with you when you migrate.
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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 10, 2011
Some observations:

1) I don't think it's American or Canadian culture that are influencing husbands and fathers to kill their wives, daughters or sisters.

2) Honor killings in the Muslim world are not limited to geography. They extend from Black Africa, Turkey, the Arab world to Pakistan. The only cultural similarity these different peoples have in common is religion.

3) 'Honor killings' in Latin America are carried out for entirely different reasons and should be referred to as something else to avoid confusion.

4) Liberal/Secular Muslims are unlikely to carry out honor killings.

5) Where honor killings are quietly accepted by the populace, such as Jordan, it is the religious political parties that defend the practice and block attempts to criminalize or add tougher sentences for honor killings.

6) There is a bit of a loophole honor killers exploit in some Muslim majority countries to escape harsh sentences - Islamic law allows the family of a victim to pardon their assailant. In honor killings, it is not uncommon for the family of the daughter or sister to pardon the father or brother who was from the same family - who is subsequently released or receives a reduced sentence.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 10, 2011
Oh couldn't resisit the temptation to spam eh ! :D
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 10, 2011
:D He's so transparent.

I wonder where all the Hindu, Sikh etc honour killings feature in his loony list? ;)


But the young lad is overlooking a simple point - there is no justification in Islam for honour killings. Even Guru Bob hasn't managed to overturn the clear pronouncements of clerics on the issue or even manufacture a distorted interpretation of the Quran. :roll:

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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 10, 2011
Let me know which of my six observations you want to address.

For a minute there, I was believing the issue of honor killings was something you would want to tackle but turns out you simply used this thread to promote apologetic talking points.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 11, 2011
shafique wrote:Absolutely no justification for honour killings in any religion. It is a cultural phenomenon that is wrapped up in religion and honour in a number of different cultures - happens amongst Hindus, Sikhs and indeed in Latin America. Yes, there are indeed some Muslims who carry out these crimes - from Kurds to some rural-minded Pakistanis.

No excuse for any of them - but as DDS says, it is not a crime related or isolated in any one religion or tribe.

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Issue tackled head on in my first post.

I'm happy to talk about how we go about tackling the crime. For the Muslims who carry out these crimes, more education about what Islam teaches and the fact is absolutely banned (and a sin) under Islam would be one way to tackle it.

I guess the same could be said for the Hindu and Sikhs who practice it - their clerics don't condone the crimes either.

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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 11, 2011
Care explain why honor killings and the motives for them are universal in the Muslim world?

That's not 'cultural'.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 11, 2011
Easy.

Honour killings are not universal in the Muslim world. The Hindus and Sikhs are carrying out honour killings for the same reasons their Muslim neighbours are - the cultural background.

What is universal in the Muslim world (and Hindu and Sikh etc) is that the religion categorically condemns these killings as crimes.

Try and keep up eh.

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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 13, 2011
Honour killings are not universal in the Muslim world.


Let's see: Iranians, Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Indianians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, Black Africa.

All I need to do is to find if honor killings occur in Indonesia and Malaysia. I've pretty much covered most of the Muslim world otherwise.

The Hindus and Sikhs are carrying out honour killings for the same reasons their Muslim neighbours are


So Hindus and Sikhs have the same cultural background as Arabs and Turks? I'll have to look at the reasons why honor killings are actually carried out by Hindus and Sikhs. Despite reassurances from Islamic apologists, I have a feeling differences should crop up if I take a closer look.

Try and keep up eh.


Yet the Islamic religious parties of Jordan are the ones to have strongly opposed laws criminalizing honor killings and subsequent laws giving out tougher sentences. Your determination to exonerate Islam is evident but unconvincing when the campaign against honor killings is largely spearheaded by secular groups and the people who are preventing reform are the religious. Secularists are certainly not in the same camp that would want honor killings to continue - that's made up entirely of religious nutters.

I see you haven't addressed my point that Islamic Law does provide an unintentional loophole for freeing honor killers because the family of the victim has the ability to forgive the murderer. In honor killings, a) much of the family will typically agree with the killer's actions and b) the killer will most usually be a member of the family. Those are both big incentives for the family to free or reduce the killer's sentence.

The Koran Krazies are not going to be the people who want this law abolished - that will be the secularists.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 13, 2011
:roll:

I couldn't see where you the simple fact that Hindus and Sikhs (etc) also carry out honour killings.

Do you consider them to be Muslim?

Repeating what Guru Bob tells you also doesn't change the simple fact that Islam or Islamic clerics do not condone the murder of women, and explicitly condemn honour killings. Fantasies about blood money etc don't change this simple fact.

In a word. Fail.

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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 13, 2011
Well, I couldn't see much of a response to my comments in your post, but I did note that you're still claiming Muslim clerics/scholars do not condone honor killings.

What is one to make of the Islamic Action Front, then?

In Jordan, the royal family has condemned honour killings but the government has not acted in repealing lenient laws for fear of enraging Islamic conservatives. The frighteningly powerful Islamic Action Front party, has declared that the proposal to introduce harsh laws against honour-killers "would destroy our Islamic, social and family values by stripping men of their humanity when they surprise their wives or female relatives committing adultery" ("family values" are certain to raise their ugly head whenever there is talk of justice for women!). Also they declared that honour killing is an Islamic duty and they justify their actions by the fact that Mohammed advocated stoning for adultery.


http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/art ... ens-rights

The Islamic Action Front is a front for the Muslim Brotherhood that represents the MB in Jordanian parliament. Am I to believe the Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood has no clerics/scholars in its ranks or clerics/scholars supporting the movement?

That's a pretty bold claim to say not one Islamic cleric support honor killings, especially when Muslim clerics are discretely silent over the killings.

Perhaps you should explain this story from Pakistan if you want to maintain no Muslim religious leaders support honor killings:

Kazmi recounts the discovery of the burnt body of a six-day-old infant who had been strangled. Another child was found on the steps of a mosque having been stoned to death on the orders of an extremist imam who has since disappeared, he says.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... f9802b.3c1

If imams can kill newborn babies born to adulterous women, then there's no doubt there are many more imams who support killing these women in honor killings.
event horizon
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 13, 2011
Enough with the smoke and mirrors eh.

Islam and Islamic clerics condemn honour killings explicitly. Fact.

Hindus and Sikhs etc also carry out honour killing - therefore it is NOT an exclusive Muslim problem. Fact.

I challenge you to produce a direct quote from an Islamic cleric that says honour killing is ok. I suspect you can't, or you would have done so already.

Fail. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 13, 2011
it is true that Hindu and Sikh honor killings do exist, but they are mainly confined to India and do not accompany Hindu and Sikh immigrants into the West. only moslims do.
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 13, 2011
^So tell us caps - why do Hindus and Sikhs carry out honour killings?

(We'll over look the fact you've failed to do your research about honour killings in the West.. Google not working where you are?)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Re: Taking a Closer Look at Honor Killings in Canada and the Aug 13, 2011
So I'm to believe the Islamic Action Front is not endorsed by any religious scholars and clerics?

Otherwise the official, clear and comprehensive quote from the Islamic Action Front provides what you're requesting:

...harsh laws against honour-killers "would destroy our Islamic, social and family values by stripping men of their humanity when they surprise their wives or female relatives committing adultery" ("family values" are certain to raise their ugly head whenever there is talk of justice for women!). Also they declared that honour killing is an Islamic duty and they justify their actions by the fact that Mohammed advocated stoning for adultery.


- Islamic Action Front - name says it all
event horizon
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 13, 2011
^eh, the challenge was quite simple.

A direct quote from an Islamic Cleric which says honour killings are ok. You've failed so far.

Secondly, address the point that Hindus and Sikhs also carry out honour killings - and reconcile that with your belief that it is a Muslim problem. Failing there too, young man.

(And the quote you're repeating is neither a complete or direct quote about honour killings, nor is it from an Islamic cleric or authority).

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Shafique
shafique
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 13, 2011
shafique wrote:Enough with the smoke and mirrors eh.

Islam and Islamic clerics condemn honour killings explicitly. Fact.

Hindus and Sikhs etc also carry out honour killing - therefore it is NOT an exclusive Muslim problem. Fact.

I challenge you to produce a direct quote from an Islamic cleric that says honour killing is ok. I suspect you can't, or you would have done so already.

Fail. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique


here it is:
in the West bank, under palestinian law (no separation between state and religion) a man who "surprises his wife or any close female relative" in an act of adultery or fornication may invoke a defence of "crime of honour" if he murders her.
If convicted, the perpetrators tend to receive a maximum sentence of six months.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... f354e7.521

You busted shaf
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Re: Taking A Closer Look At Honor Killings In Canada And The Aug 13, 2011
^Fail. :roll:

Nothing in that AFP article states an Islamic authority saying honour killing is ok. Indeed it says that even when used as a defence (under Jordanian law), the perpetrator is jailed. Sigh.

Learn to read caps.

Perhaps eh will have better luck explaining his fantasy beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:26 pm --

Caps don't forget the question asked:

shafique wrote:^So tell us caps - why do Hindus and Sikhs carry out honour killings?

shafique
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