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http://www.newser.com/story/112773/geor ... death.html

And not just abortions but even miscarriages !

And just when you thought it could not get any whackier

Nebraska is thinking of declaring open season on Abortion docs !

http://www.newser.com/story/112787/now- ... legal.html

The article also states a similar bill was proposed in South Dakota aswell !

It seems the liberal v conservative divide can't get any bigger than it does on abortion in the US. I for one am pro-choice but at the same time if it came down to it I would never choose for my partners to have an abortion.

JoeTGF wrote:It seems the liberal v conservative divide can't get any bigger than it does on abortion in the US. I for one am pro-choice but at the same time if it came down to it I would never choose for my partners to have an abortion.

What about if the child had severe disabilities Joe?

The Nebraska bill, on the other hand, would allow any third party to do so, Mother Jones reports.

Christensen says he did not intend to target abortion providers, but simply wanted to allow pregnant women to defend their unborn children without being charged with a crime.

The Nebraska bill is proposing that persons have the legal right to defend an unborn child, just as anyone has the right to defend a child, including through the use of lethal force.

This was spun in the story as saying anyone could target abortion doctors.

But my view on that is, if you don't believe in targeting abortion doctors, just don't target an abortion doctor yourself.

As I wrote that post that did cross my mind but I didn't want to add specific circumstances. I guess I just don't know but it would be the only one that would make me think. I would not want my child to have half a life but the alternative is no life at all - who am I to choose? Nevertheless it would be a tough decision and one I could probably only make once confronted with it.

A good friend of my wive's has just discovered that her unborn child will have a very severe disease (forgive me I don't know what it is) and she is getting an abortion but still struck with guilt and indecision. She has two girls and this one was a boy - so sad.

That's a very sad story about your friend Joe, but it has to be the right decision in my opinion. Unfortunately I was in that position a long time ago when I was advised to go down that route by my doctor. I've never regretted it but I sometimes think about what might have been. Your friend's wife needs to be strong and comfort herself with the knowledge that it is best for both the family and the unborn child. If I had to make the decision again it would be the same one.

I initially thought that this might be about the country Georgia!

Wow, proposing to kill a woman for an abortion (and presumably the doctors, nurses etc would accessories to murder, if not murderers themselves).

What is sad, is that these extremist views give religious people a bad name in general.

That this is usually done in the name of Christianity is doubly ironic - for Jesus' central message was one of forgiveness. He interceded on behalf of a convicted woman about to be stoned to death, for example.

But it goes to show - religious extremists are everywhere.

(I have no issue with pro-lifers in general - it is extremist views like this that I think give them a bad name.)

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, wouldn't you call yourself a religious extremist? It does appear to be the only thing you can bang on about.

You never give a genuine reply to any post.

A fine example of people abusing their government positions for their own agenda. This is too crazy to even debate.

I don't see where religion comes into either article. It has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with making choices. The "whys" as to the people who chose to abort a fetus belongs to the person or persons who make that decision.

It goes as far as even miscarriages, now there are many cases of this happening naturally. If passed the woman is presumed guilty until proven innocent

His 10-page bill would make any “prenatal murder” a felony punishable by death or life in prison—and that includes miscarriages, in the event the woman cannot prove that there was "no human involvement whatsoever in the causation"

Bob Franklin, Christian Extremist:

Franklin is a fierce opponent of abortion and gay rights. Franklin holds that America has strayed from its Christian past and the country needs to be changed into a Christian nation. Franklin believes that legislation that is in direct opposition to God's word will bring about the wrath of God. In 2010, Franklin stated, "Islamic terrorism is not the greatest threat facing America. God is."[13] Franklin claims that President George W. Bush "praises the gods of pagan religions."[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Franklin

And this is what at least one American lady thinks of his latest proposal in the OP:
http://www.angryblacklady.com/2011/02/2 ... y-for-all/



Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote:It goes as far as even miscarriages, now there are many cases of this happening naturally. If passed the woman is presumed guilty until proven innocent

His 10-page bill would make any “prenatal murder” a felony punishable by death or life in prison—and that includes miscarriages, in the event the woman cannot prove that there was "no human involvement whatsoever in the causation"

Doesn't that tell you how nuts this guy is, not to mention ignorant!!!

The three major monotheistic faiths all teach that abortion, as a form of birth control, is wrong and advocate the rights of the unborn.

It is in the Muslim world where the rights of the unborn are protected the most. I see no reason to disagree with the three Monotheistic faiths that the unborn need protecting as much as the newborn.

I also believe we should accept the cultural sensitivities of the people of Georgia/Nebraska on where they decide to draw the line on murdering the innocent. I, for one, respect their cultural beliefs and would find it hypocritical to say it's ok for the people of the Muslim world to restrict abortion - ban it entirely as a form of birth control - but not being 'ok' if the people of the United States ban abortion.

I'm all for reasoned debates and I have no issues with pro-Lifers who are on the whole quite reasonable in their views about the sanctity of human life.

As I said before, it is the extremist fringe represented by Christian Extremists like Franklin that tarnish the reputation of the pro-lifers.

His calls for legislation seem to be directly related to his extremist view of scripture:
Franklin believes that legislation that is in direct opposition to God's word will bring about the wrath of God.

However, it is indeed a fact that the American people have voted for people with these extreme religious views into power. Whilst we may find their views distasteful or even dangerous (as indeed, the American lady I linked to does), - or even 'nuts and ignorant'.

The fact remains they are in power because they were voted into power. Similar principles occur in other countries.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, I certainly find it hypocritical to oppose someone who advocates a law based on his or her religious beliefs and then support others who advocate laws based on his or her religion.

Interesting line of reasoning there eh.

Christian extremist views are listed, and your reply is effectively 'but I BELIEVE you are an extremist too'.

Even if I was an extremist, how is that relevant in this thread? Surely this is about the Christian Extremist legislator wanting to women to be put to death for having abortions.

Please try and focus. The new DF is asking you to avoid personal attacks.

Cheers,
Shafique

I certainly sympathize with those Christians in Georgia/Nebraska/South Dakota. They are simply expressing their cultural values - for which they are being attacked.

Can't remember the last time their attackers would dare speak out against those who would lash someone for pre-marital s.ex or execute a child murderer because of their religious beliefs.

It is clear to me that the Christian extremists in Georgia etc are supporting this proposed law. (I'd say that not all Christians or all pro-lifers are in favour of the extremist law - but if you have evidence to the contrary, please refer me to it).

That they are doing so because of religious extremism is also a fact. There are plenty of posts on DF which criticise extremists of other religions when they propose laws or punishments that are viewed as extreme.

Killing of women for choosing an abortion is something that I would classify as extreme punishment, and I maintain that most pro-Lifers and most Christians would NOT support this Christian Extremist law.

This thread is not about what other religious extremists in other countries propose though - it is about this one particular elected Christian extremist and his extremist law.

At least we've now established that this IS about Christians expressing their wishes based on the Bible (Bora was saying earlier in the thread that there was no indication that this was about religion).

Cheers,
Shafique

Likewise, most Americans view proposing violent punishments for non-violent offenses an extremist position as well.

I guess this is a case of pot calling the kettle black.

I would say this is a case of calling a spade a spade.

Calling for a woman to be killed because of an abortion (and basing this on religious conviction) is pretty extreme by most people's standards.

Whether you think some Islamic laws are extreme too, isn't really relevant - unless your trying to make a 'whataboutery' argument?

I've never called for the killing of women for abortion.

Cheers,
Shafique

One could argue that Westerners oppose murder based on religious reasons. Perhaps you've just never thought through that morality laws throughout the world exist entirely because of religion, yet no peep about this.

(Neither is the mention that abortion is a punishable crime in most Muslim majority nations)

As I said, most Americans are opposed to hand chopping and lashing for non-violent crimes. So you're basically sawing the branch you're standing on when you mention what most Americans are against - it certainly doesn't help you any bit.

Still trying the 'whataboutery' argument eh - close but no cigar.

Extremists are using the Bible to justify state killing of women over abortions. Whether you or others think I'm an extremist is neither here nor there, is it?

Cheers,
Shafique

I think anyone proposing a bill that
- women who miscarry or have an abortion should be jailed for life or given the death penalty
- abortion doctors can legally be killed
is a mentally unstable religious fanatic. That's called attempted legislation of religious terrorism against women and medical providers and no one in their right mind could ever support this.

Women will fight to the death to be able to keep their reproductive freedoms.

^Well said kanelli.

In fact, you may say that anyone on these forums who does not condemn this is an extremist religious nutter too!

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, if anyone thinks those bills are a good idea, they must be misogynistic religious extremists.

Remind me again, is abortion legal in the UAE? What's the punishment if caught?

And how is opposing the murder of the unborn make one a religious nutter? There are people who oppose abortion for purely secular reasons. In fact, opposition to abortion is just as logical as opposing the murder of the born.

Abortion is not legal in the UAE because of religion. What is the penalty for a woman who miscarries or has an abortion? What is the penalty for doctors who perform abortions? If the UAE has similar laws to the one ones proposed in the US, does it mean that it is right for the US to agree to such legislation?

You can oppose the murder of the unborn, but how is it fair to throw a woman into jail for the rest of her life or kill her, or even kill a doctor who provides safe medical abortion when you know nothing of the circumstances? A fetus is not a live-born baby so it is not the same as killing a baby/child/teen/adult. How about the rights of the woman who is carrying the clump of dividing cells/fetus - its HER body! The woman has to count too. What is the solution, encouraging women who miscarry or have unwanted pregnancies to commit suicide so that at least they are dead along with their fetuses? Guess how many suicides you'd see every year... Now that sounds really humane!

shafique wrote:^Well said kanelli.

In fact, you may say that anyone on these forums who does not condemn this is an extremist religious nutter too!

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh, get off that high horse. If its up to you those girls getting pregnant out of wedlock deserve some good whipping for fornication.

What is the penalty for a woman who miscarries or has an abortion? What is the penalty for doctors who perform abortions?

Read the comments section in both articles. Needless to say the authors in both never seemed to have bothered reading the proposed laws in question.

You can oppose the murder of the unborn, but how is it fair to throw a woman into jail for the rest of her life or kill her, or even kill a doctor who provides safe medical abortion when you know nothing of the circumstances?

Is it fair to throw someone in jail for smothering a baby if I didn't know the circumstances? Oh but you're going to say....

A fetus is not a live-born baby so it is not the same as killing a baby/child/teen/adult.

Under US law, no, it's not. Then again under the law it was perfectly legal to own slaves. Oh, and tell me, what's the difference between a five month fetus and four month pre-term baby?

Can I go around smothering pre-terms? Pull the cord on the machine that's keeping them alive?

How about the rights of the woman who is carrying the clump of dividing cells/fetus - its HER body!

What about the right of the unborn, it's their body!

The woman has to count too.

Right to life takes precedence over other rights.

What is the solution

Uhm, be responsible in the first place?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Oh, get off that high horse. If its up to you those girls getting pregnant out of wedlock deserve some good whipping for fornication.

+1

I suspect that whipping during fornication is more FD's style

-- Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:05 am --

event horizon wrote:

What is the penalty for a woman who miscarries or has an abortion? What is the penalty for doctors who perform abortions?

Read the comments section in both articles. Needless to say the authors in both never seemed to have bothered reading the proposed laws in question.

I was asking about the UAE.

You can oppose the murder of the unborn, but how is it fair to throw a woman into jail for the rest of her life or kill her, or even kill a doctor who provides safe medical abortion when you know nothing of the circumstances?

Is it fair to throw someone in jail for smothering a baby if I didn't know the circumstances? Oh but you're going to say....

Once a baby is born it is definitely a person. I think that there should be a rule about the age of the fetus. For example, no abortions once hitting 3rd trimester. The baby must be born and given for adoption if the mother doesn't want it. During the first two trimesters every woman should have the right to abort. The fetus isn't viable if born during those first two trimesters anyway.

A fetus is not a live-born baby so it is not the same as killing a baby/child/teen/adult.

Under US law, no, it's not. Then again under the law it was perfectly legal to own slaves. Oh, and tell me, what's the difference between a five month fetus and four month pre-term baby?

Can I go around smothering pre-terms? Pull the cord on the machine that's keeping them alive?

Now you are talking slavery? Stay on topic please. The difference is wording. So what? Four month pre-term babies rarely survive or have major physical and mental difficulties for the rest of their lives. Many people choose to let the baby die rather than hook it up to machines to attempt to prolong its life, and they are legally allowed to do so.

How about the rights of the woman who is carrying the clump of dividing cells/fetus - its HER body!

What about the right of the unborn, it's their body!

But you see, they don't have rights really until they are born. At least that is a logical - once they separate from their mother's body they are full persons.

The woman has to count too.

Right to life takes precedence over other rights.

Yes, the woman has a right to her life and how much and when she reproduces.

What is the solution

Uhm, be responsible in the first place?

I agree! Is this an ideal world?