Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ

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Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
In the Byzantium thread there was a reference to Malecide in the article quoted.

This was used in the context of the Catholic Church extolling the virtues of killing in the name of Christ during the Crusades. Specifically, St Bernard of Clairvaux was given the task of preaching and encouraging Christians to fight in the second crusade.

His theological argument is preserved and is quite eye-opening:

To Die or to Kill for Christ Is Not Criminal, but Glorious


About the lawfulness of war against the pagans, Saint Bernard, the Mellifluous Doctor, has these glowing words:

But in truth the knights of Christ fight the battles of their Lord with all tranquillity of conscience, fearing neither sin by the death of their enemies nor the danger of their own death, because death inflicted or suffered for Christ’s sake bears no trace of crime and often brings the merit of glory. In the former case, there is a gain for Christ; in the latter, Christ is gained, Who doubtless both willingly accepts the death of an enemy for punishment and more willingly offers Himself to the soldier for consolation.

The knight of Christ, I say, kills with tranquil conscience and dies even more tranquilly. In dying he benefits himself, in killing he benefits Christ. For he bears not a sword without cause; he is the minister of God for the punishment of evil and the exaltation of good. When he kills a malefactor, it is not homicide but, so to say, "malecide"; and he is clearly considered the avenger of Christ in the case of those who do evil, and the defender of Christians. Moreover, when he himself is killed, it is understood that he has not perished, but that he has arrived in eternal glory. The death, therefore, that he inflicts is again for Christ; the death that he receives is his own gain.

The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because Christ is glorified; in the death of a Christian, the liberality of the king is revealed, because the soldier is taken away to be rewarded. Furthermore, the just man will rejoice over the one when he has seen the punishment.

Concerning the other, a man will say: "If indeed there be fruit to the just: there is indeed a God that judgeth them on the earth" (Ps. 57:12). Not that the pagans should be slain if by any other means they can be impeded from persecuting and oppressing the faithful. But presently it is better that they be killed so that, in this way, the just men do not bend to the iniquity of their hands, for on the contrary, certainly the sinners’ rod will be upon the lot of the just.


Saint Bernard, the Mellifluous Doctor
De laude novae militiae, in Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol. 182, col. 924.
Crusade for a Christian Civilization.


http://www.autentico.org/oa09254.php

:shock:

shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in nane of Christ Aug 17, 2010
Once again holding Christianity to higher standards than Islam.

Muslims also believed that taking part in the Jihad against Constantinople would wipe their sins away (based on a saying from Muhammad) and the Koran explicitly says that Muslims who died on Jihad would be immediately sent to Paradise.

St Bernard's statements are clear if the context is given - Bernard believed that Christians who died in battle against Muslim oppressors would be sent to Heaven.

It's certainly no worse a concept than the mainstream teachings in Islam and far milder than other concepts within Islam.
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ Aug 17, 2010
I'm not engaging in 'what aboutery' - I leave that to you. I'm just referring to what Christians taught in terms of Holy War in Christendom.

I agree that St Bernard's statements are clear:
The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because Christ is glorified


Can't see how you're going to spin that!

(BTW nice attempt at spinning the Islamic teaching that martyrs go to heaven with St Bernard's call for glorious killings in the name of Christ.. doesn't quite work though, does it? No where in Islam is there any teaching that killing wipes away sin - that's to be found in Christian teachings.)

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Shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
(BTW nice attempt at spinning the Islamic teaching that martyrs go to heaven with St Bernard's call for glorious killings in the name of Christ.. doesn't quite work though, does it?)


Well, let's see what the Koran says about killing non-believers in the same passage it talks about Paradise for Muslims who die in Jihad:

Koran 9:111

God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God...


And Hadith for good measure:

Narrated Khalid bin Madan:
That 'Umair bin Al-Aswad Al-Anasi told him that he went to 'Ubada bin As-Samit while he was staying in his house at the seashore of Hims with (his wife) Um Haram. 'Umair said. Um Haram informed us that she heard the Prophet saying, "Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition." Um Haram added, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Will I be amongst them?' He replied, 'You are amongst them.' The Prophet then said, 'the first army amongst' my followers who will invade Caesar's City will be forgiven their sins.' I asked, 'Will I be one of them, O Allah's Apostle?' He replied in the negative."


So, Muslims who want to be sent to Paradise should kill non-Muslims and be killed.

And I haven't even quoted any Muslim theologians !
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ Aug 17, 2010
LOL.

Nice attempt again. But massive fail.

Martyrs go to heaven, yes. But killing does not wipe away sins. The difference isn't even subtle. You can't even bring yourself to quote the verse in full.

Anyway, let's get back to St Bernard and his glorifying of killing. Enough with the 'what aboutery' arguments - they are pathetic. Either defend the teaching or condemn it - but 'what about' arguments relating to Islam are just smoke and mirrors.

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Shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
LoL. Nice half attempt at obfuscation. Too bad you know you won't get anywhere by making a point that the verse wasn't quoted in full.

So, are you saying that killing non-believers in Jihad is a sin ?

BTW, please comment on the Hadith I posted. The Hadith says that the sins of the Muslims will be erased if the sack the city of Constantinople.

Do you condemn the Koran where it says that Muslims who die killing non-Muslims will be sent to Paradise ?
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ Aug 17, 2010
I'm quite categorically and clearly stating a fact: no where in Islam does it teach/state/infer/allude that killing absolves the killer of sin - whether it is in Jihad or otherwise. Martyrs do go to heaven, whether they are martyred by bombs, knives etc.

But what has that got to do with St Bernard's glorifying of killing?

Would it make easier to defend if you could show that Muslims share this blood-lust? What aboutery just exposes your inability to handle the truth about the crusades, doesn't it young one?

Is your only defence ' but, but loons think Muslims are worse?' ? :shock:

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Shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
Martyrs go to heaven, yes. But killing does not wipe away sins.


And yet the Koran and Hadith are quite clear - those who take part in the sack of Constantinople will have their sins wiped clean and Muslims who die *KILLING* non-believers will be sent to Paradise.

So, you don't condemn the Koran or the Hadith where those who kill non-Muslims are rewarded for their actions ?

The difference isn't even subtle. You can't even bring yourself to quote the verse in full.


Yet your own quotation is clear. Oppressors should not be slain if Chrisians can end their tyranny through any other means:

Not that the pagans should be slain if by any other means they can be impeded from persecuting and oppressing the faithful.


The quotations are clear - Christians should not kill their oppressors if they are able to end oppression through other means.

As for the glorification of killing, I could find truly blood curdling statements from Hamas martyrdom videos.

But you wouldn't want that, now would you ?
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ Aug 17, 2010
So, your defence is 'us Loons think Muslims are worse'!

LOL

Your desperation shines through. Nothing remotely says sins are absolved by killing - that's only in St Bernard's words above - glorifying the killing of pagans.

The knight of Christ, I say, kills with tranquil conscience and dies even more tranquilly. In dying he benefits himself, in killing he benefits Christ.

:shock:


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Shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
eh - it occured to me that in expressing support for the view that Killing in the name of Christ is ok, you are adding to your undisputed reputation for being the most extreme religious poster on these forums!

I mean, most Christians today would denounce the glorification of killing in the name of religion - but you defend it. You even say it is mild compared to your fantasies of what Muslims believe! :shock:

Well, I'll have to update the 'most extreme religious fanatic' thread with this information.
philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961.html

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Shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
The quotes are clear - Killing is only a last resort for Christians if they are incapable of overthrowing their oppressors through any other manner.

Beyond that, I suppose it is high irony for a Muslim to wave their bony finger at members of other religions and accuse them of glorifying killing and death.

Have we already forgotten your comments praising the mother who glorified death and wanted her son to blow up Israeli civilians ?

Seriously, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

*yawn*

...Nevertheless, this idyllic situation developed into a deep crisis that led to the severance of the relations and what appeared to be the end of the filming. From an innocent conversation about religious holidays, Raida Abu Mustafa launched into a painful monologue about the culture of the shahids - the martyrs - and admitted, during the complex transplant process, that she would like to see her son perpetrate a suicide bombing attack in Jerusalem.

"Jerusalem is ours," she declared. "We are all for Jerusalem, the whole nation, not just a million, all of us. Do you understand what that means - all of us?"

She also explained to Eldar exactly what she had in mind. "For us, death is a natural thing. We are not frightened of death. From the smallest infant, even smaller than Mohammed, to the oldest person, we will all sacrifice ourselves for the sake of Jerusalem. We feel we have the right to it. You're free to be angry, so be angry."

And Eldar was angry. "Then why are you fighting to save your son's life, if you say that death is a usual thing for your people?" he lashes out in one of the most dramatic moments in the film.

"It is a regular thing," she smiles at him. "Life is not precious. Life is precious, but not for us. For us, life is nothing, not worth a thing. That is why we have so many suicide bombers. They are not afraid of death. None of us, not even the children, are afraid of death. It is natural for us. After Mohammed gets well, I will certainly want him to be a shahid. If it's for Jerusalem, then there's no problem. For you it is hard, I know; with us, there are cries of rejoicing and happiness when someone falls as a shahid. For us a shahid is a tremendous thing."


A Muslim mother wants her child to become a suicide bomber and you want to bring up quotes from nine hundred year old theologians.

And you replied to the mother's comments by saying:

A moving and harrowing account by a woman who wishes the occupation of Jerusalem to end. Can't spin the occupation of Jerusalem or the desire of those living under occupation (and illegal annexation, don't forget) as anything other that what it is.


So, to me, St. Bernard's comments are a moving and harrowing account by a man who wishes the occupation of Jerusalem to end. Can't spin the occupation of Jerusalem and Antioch and hundreds of other cities and towns or the desire of those living under occupation and annexation as anything other than what it is.
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ Aug 17, 2010
Doesn't read to me like killings are a last resort:

The knight of Christ, I say, kills with tranquil conscience and dies even more tranquilly. In dying he benefits himself, in killing he benefits Christ.


And the glorification of killing is quite chilling:

The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because Christ is glorified


No amount of 'what about-ery' can change these chilling words, which you are bending over backwards to defend.

Shocking, eh, shocking.

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Shafique
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders killing in name of Christ Aug 17, 2010
I agree, what could be sicker than a mother pushing her son to being a suicide bomber ?
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Re: Malecide - Crusaders Killing In Name Of Christ Aug 17, 2010
A pretty lame attempt at 'what about-ery', eh. Is that the best you could do?

It is a sad sight to see loons resort to attack rather than do the decent thing and condemn the call for killings in the name of Christ. The hate must out-weigh the shame. Sad.

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