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FD asked whether I consider Berrin to be anti-semitic. To be fair to both Berrin and FD, let me look at what Berrin has written and assess whether I'd label Berrin as an anti-semite:

Berrin wrote:

Well I remember you couldn't get yourself denying the conclusions of 'documentaries' from Iran and Hamas denying the holocaust.

Well there is a difference between denying consequence of holocaust and the objectives of holocaust.
Just as there is difference between anti-semitism and anti-israel..

No, nothing there that strikes me as anti-semitic.

Berrin wrote:Everyone knows that in the history of Europe between 19th/20th century the borders/countries were being built by seducing hatred amongst ethnic groups in communities which resulted in uprise hence pogroms, mass killings via wars etc..

Just the fact that hands salute nazi in America gives us the sign that this pogrom in Germany was well calculated amongst the powers of the time when America was left to control affairs in Middle East after muslim borders were established.

Again, I can't see anything there that expresses a hatred for Jews/Judaism.

Berrin wrote:the holocaust was real in the sense that so many jews had to die(sacrificed) in order to legitimate a jewish state being built on the lands of palestinians.It was a hoax in the sense that Hitler was anti-semitic and that he was after creating one purified/super race nation.

All muslims/non-muslims who are anti-racist, peace loving knows this fact and can clearly see this happening if dig into history of European politics as well as ME affairs through analytic mind.

Berrin's certainly guilty of not being completely clear in what he's saying. "It was a hoax in the sense that Hitler was anti-semitic"??

What do you mean Berrin - are you saying that Hitler was or wasn't anti-Semitic. I think it would be a bit stupid to argue that Hitler wasn't an anti-semite.

FD - I'd ask Berrin whether he hates all Jews and Judaism before I labelled him anti-Semite - I certainly would not condemn him based on what you think he said above. (But that's perhaps just me - I'd rather not jump to conclusions that I embarrassingly could not back up later when challenged.

Cheers,
Shafique

So according Shafique, a nazi salute and/or denying the holocaust is not anti-semitic. For me thats how to spot a anti-semite. Also Berrin comments that jews are responsible for the holocaust (and nazi's have nothing to do with it) is also not considered anti-semitic. Nice!

I am sure you have a lot of followers here on this forum.

-- Mon May 17, 2010 6:15 pm --

Berrin wrote:Jews have had, and still have, influence in Amsterdam. Are you one of them by any chance-the supporter of zionism?

No, I am not jewish and not from Amsterdam.

Do I support Zionism? I believe Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. An important part of the existence is because people like you. Or uaekid and the other idiot who stated theti wish to kill all jews.

I think it is a good point to take a deep breath and review what has transpired in this thread. It is quite interesting on a number of levels.


The intial post is about a US survey which shows Islamophobia is more likely amongst Americans who hold anti-semitic views. No one really seems to dispute this survey's results.

DK and I had a brief discussion on how Buddhism doesn't seem to invoke predjudice or have external violent tendencies, but it was noted that there it is not immune from some violence - albeit over a small theological point and in an isolated area of Buddhism.

DK seems to be the one who put the cat amongst the pigeons by posting about a conversation he had in Saudi Arabia where it was said that issues were not with Jews, but with Israel.

Then the fireworks started in response to my writing:

There is now a concerted campaign to fudge the issue and insist that the Palestinian issue is more complicated than it actually is.


FD and I had a long discussion on Palestinian diplomatic moves to declare independence and formally crystalise what is in UN resolutions about Israel.

In that thread, some facts were brought out which I listed
1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

dubai-politics-talk/palestine-push-for-independence-t39413-270.html#p325228

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

FD took exception to this and stated

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me. Your ´facts´ stems from an intense hatred. Like how Auschwitz is also not a fact for you. But lets not reiterate arguments made in another thread that are slightly off topic here.

So 1. I have 'intense hatred. and 2. Aushchwitz is apparently not a fact for me.

And to remove all doubt, FD stated:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

I've asked for any evidence for this allegation (I called it a slur) and we have been led on a merry dance about Salutes, some alleged calculations which disprove death camps and requests to analyse Berrin's quotes. (But no evidence that I could see)

And in the last post above we have FD's summary:

So according Shafique, a nazi salute and/or denying the holocaust is not anti-semitic.

Hmmm - would that mean I'm not an anti-semite because I don't do a Nazi salute and don't deny the Holocaust? But what could the 'intense hatred' FD said above be referring to?

For me thats how to spot a anti-semite.

Thanks for sharing.

Berrin comments that jews are responsible for the holocaust (and nazi's have nothing to do with it) is also not considered anti-semitic. Nice!

Again, I must have slept through where I said this -



Anyway, FD - please let me know if my summary of the sequence is off - and particularly let me know if you have actually provided any evidence for your allegations/slurs against me?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:These are facts that aren't disputed.

Which a lie, and everybody can go back to the thread to check.

shafique wrote:Hmmm - would that mean I'm not an anti-semite because I don't do a Nazi salute and don't deny the Holocaust? But what could the 'intense hatred' FD said above be referring to?

Again, Shafique doesn't consider a nazi salute and/or holocaust denial anti-semitic. You are trying to go around that by obscuring it, but it is clear.

shafique wrote:Again, I must have slept through where I said this -

Yeah, you must have:

Berrin wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps..

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:These are facts that aren't disputed.

Which a lie, and everybody can go back to the thread to check.

It's strange that even though the quote is above, you don't quote it in full.

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

The facts weren't disputed - you only gave excuses for the facts. Which fact is wrong/disputed, in your opinion and give us a link to the post where the fact is disputed in that thread, please.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:Hmmm - would that mean I'm not an anti-semite because I don't do a Nazi salute and don't deny the Holocaust? But what could the 'intense hatred' FD said above be referring to?

Again, Shafique doesn't consider a nazi salute and/or holocaust denial anti-semitic. You are trying to go around that by obscuring it, but it is clear.

? It is not clear to me at all. Surely this isn't your 'evidence' is it?


Also, thanks for confirming that I didn't comment on Berrin's quote you gave above.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin wrote:

Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps.. my tag line is that "Watch what is done, not what is said"..

On this post, I would disagree with Berrin - and agree that this view is anti-Semitic.

My view is rather the one put forward by Chomsky and Finkelstein - that the Holocaust did happen (of course it did), but that it has been abused by Israel and used as an excuse to inflict human rights abuses and flout international law.

But, FD - come on. You made allegations against me which sounded like your accusing me of being an Anti-Semite ('intense hatred' you said).

Please tell me that you based this on something more solid than recollections of posts I never made.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Berrin wrote:

Are you trying to say that jews caused (or even executed) the holocaust themselves in order to legitimize the establishment of Israel?

That's how it looks like and there is more to it than that.. they were carving the world in camps.. my tag line is that "Watch what is done, not what is said"..

On this post, I would disagree with Berrin - and agree that this view is anti-Semitic.

Why are you two continue your argument over me/mine?
I am entitled to my own opinion and can jolly well defend my view regardless of whether you two agree to it.
FD, just becouse Shafique and I have common belief in religion, doesn't make the two of us agree on all fronts in every issue. We too can have differences and learn to settle them, alright?

shafique wrote:The facts weren't disputed - you only gave excuses for the facts. Which fact is wrong/disputed, in your opinion and give us a link to the post where the fact is disputed in that thread, please.

Good thing the thread is still there. This was one of my responses:

Flying Dutchman wrote:you can keep on repeating them as many times as you want, my answers can be seen in previous posts. With most I disagree.

As I suggested before. If you have any comments regarding that thread, do it in that thread. If you any comment on people calling you in (serial) liar, there is also an existing thread for that.

As I said, despite the name calling, you are the one who has made unsubstantiated allegations.

You imagine and 'am sure' I have 'intense hatred' and support Holocaust denials.

In some ways, it is interesting that your reactions stem from the facts I listed about Israel, and your assertion that the facts are a reflection of an 'intense hatred'. I gave the link to the thread where the list of facts was drawn up and I've invited you to substantiate your belief that I was lying when I said no facts have been disputed, only excuses have been offered for those facts.

So, it appears you have no actual evidence to support your allegation that 1. I have 'intense hatred' and 2. deny the Holocaust.

Do you think that repeating slurs without evidence will eventually convince people your beliefs are correct?

I've invited your comments about Hamas' statement on the Holocaust in the other thread. I look forward to your explanations of the full statement there with the quotes you gave in this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I would disagree with Berrin - and agree that this view is anti-Semitic.

QFT. Berrin is an anti-semite.

shafique wrote:My view is rather the one put forward by Chomsky and Finkelstein - that the Holocaust did happen (of course it did), but that it has been abused by Israel and used as an excuse to inflict human rights abuses and flout international law.

Yes, I see how you can agree with Chomksy. He also, like you, doesn't consider holocaust denial or denial of the gas chambers anti-semitic. Chomsky also maintains close relationships with some holocaust deniers.

shafique wrote:Please tell me that you based this on something more solid than recollections of posts I never made.

I also base it on the fact that you donot consider a nazi salute anti-semitic and that you donot consider holocaust denial as anti-semitic.

-- Mon May 17, 2010 8:39 pm --

Berrin wrote:Why are you two continue your argument over me/mine?
I am entitled to my own opinion and can jolly well defend my view regardless of whether you two agree to it.

Hey, Shafique just called you an anti-semite.

Berrin wrote:FD, just becouse Shafique and I have common belief in religion

Really? Do you also believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani was Mary, the morther of Jesus and became pregnant and delivered himself as Jesus and turned into the Promised Messiah???

I'm still trying to understand the reaction you had to my summary of the Israeli issue.

There is now a concerted campaign to fudge the issue and insist that the Palestinian issue is more complicated than it actually is.


FD and I had a long discussion on Palestinian diplomatic moves to declare independence and formally crystalise what is in UN resolutions about Israel.

In that thread, some facts were brought out which I listed
1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

dubai-politics-talk/palestine-push-for-independence-t39413-270.html#p325228

These are facts that aren't disputed. (Rather excuses are always given for why Israel should be allowed to break international law etc - it's the 'mooslims who hate us' is a recurring theme)

FD took exception to this and stated

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, Shafique, those are your ´facts´. Don´t include me. Your ´facts´ stems from an intense hatred. Like how Auschwitz is also not a fact for you. But lets not reiterate arguments made in another thread that are slightly off topic here.

So 1. I have 'intense hatred. and 2. Aushchwitz is apparently not a fact for me.

And to remove all doubt, FD stated:

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never miss a change to defend and agree with holocaust deniers when they deny the holocaust: whether it is from Iran, Hamas or a neo-nazi website.

Looking at the above again, I only mentioned your name in the context that you and I had a debate on the issue. I stated that the list of facts was a list I drew up and that the facts were not disputed, only excuses offered for them.

Yet, from this you accuse me of 1. Hatred and 2.denying the holocaust (Auschwitz is not a fact).

What in that list of facts led you to these conclusions? Separately, you seem to think my statement that none of the facts were disputed, only excused, is a lie. I can't see how you can say this without pointing to which fact is incorrect rather than excused by yourself - but I'm less concerned about being called a liar (people can easily see whether I wrote something untrue or not), but I'm intrigued into your logic that the list provided led you to write that I have 'intense hatred' (I presume you are saying I hate Jews or Zionists or something) and deny the Holocaust.


Can you at least explain your reaction and allegations of 'hatred' and Holocaust denial?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Can you at least explain your reaction and allegations of 'hatred' and Holocaust denial?

The answer is what most of this thread is about until now. I have no desire to into circles. Just reread the posts.
As specified before you not finding a nazi salute anti-semitic nor holocaust denial, only strengthened my opinion.

I've re-read the posts (and quoted them to make sure there is no mistake). I see no evidence to explain your slur that I deny the Holocaust or that my statement of facts is a reflection of 'intense hatred'.

Your allegations are therefore baseless - and whilst I could join you in name-calling instead of debating, you'll excuse me if I decline to join you down there.


You, however, did state in this thread that Hamas does deny the Holocaust and is anti-Semitic - I've invited you to explain this view in light of the full statement given by Hamas in 2008 which contradicts what you attribute to them. The thread is waiting for your comment - I hope you're not avoiding it just because the facts don't fit in with your world view?

Cheers,
Shafique

Like I stated before. An anti-semite can be recognzied by:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel especially compared to any other party in the Middle East.
-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's
-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the media and the financial markets
-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

Three strikes and you are out!

You fit the bill!

Rather by down here than join you in your hatred!

As for Hamas and the holocaust I stated want I wanted to state in this thread and we have discussed this already many times. You think Hamas is not anti-semitic, I think they are: based on their convenant and subsequent actions.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Like I stated before. An anti-semite can be recognzied by:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel especially compared to any other party in the Middle East.
-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's
-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the media and the financial markets
-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

Three strikes and you are out!

You fit the bill!

Rather by down here than join you in your hatred!

Well, I'm 2 out of 4, so I guess that makes me a quasi-anti-semite.

As for hatred, you are so full of hatred towards Muslims, and I assume Arabs as well. Your post from yesterday that was deleted, as it should have been, spoke volumns of your hatred.

Clearly you must be Jewish, because no one else plays the victim so well. It's not the Jewish faith that I detest, it's the PEOPLE in ISRAEL that can't and don't want to live in peace. Israel could be Christian, Protestant, Hindu, Jehovah Witnesses - it doesn't change Israel's agenda.

And yes, Jews do control all forms of media, especially in the US, a well known fact. Israel, by virtue of the Jews in the US, has a chokehold on the US. If the US ever threw up it's hands and told Israel that it was on it's own, just how long do you think Israel would exist before being taken off the map? There would be a mass exodus of Israelis to the U.S. Israel would be begging to make peace in the region, give back land that it took and then some. Without the protection of the US, Israel would not exist today. In spite of the weapons Israel possesses, would Israel survive the onslaught of the surrounding countries? Unlikely. And you know what? the world would say Israel got what it deserved.

Bora Bora wrote: so I guess that makes me a quasi-anti-semite.

self knowledge is an important thing

Bora Bora wrote: As for hatred, you are so full of hatred towards Muslims, and I assume Arabs as well.

Why is that? I heard the argument before that acknowleging the right of Israel to exist is Islamophobic.

Bora Bora wrote: Your post from yesterday that was deleted, as it should have been, spoke volumns of your hatred.

Well, a witness, thanks. If I remember correctly I wrote that many forum members here are anti-semitic. I stand by that statement.

Bora Bora wrote:Clearly you must be Jewish

* looking down to double check *

Nope.


Always very peculiar that people like you just stand by and stay silent when idiots say all jews must die (like on this forum) and all get hyper when somebody defends the right of Israel to exist and defend itself. Makes one think...

Bora Bora wrote:In spite of the weapons Israel possesses, would Israel survive the onslaught of the surrounding countries? Unlikely.

(Leans over an quietly whispers in that feline ear)
Er...The 6 Day War? Yom Kippur?
The Jordanians tried it. The Lebanese tried it. The Syrians tried it. The Egyptians tried it. They all got well and truly whupped despite massive advantages in numbers and weapons.

Back in the 1960's Israel did not have the full economic support it enjoys today, yet it proved it was certainly able to defend itself when it comes to a knock down and drag out.

Don't underestimate them.



Knight

Flying Dutchman wrote:Like I stated before. An anti-semite can be recognzied by:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel especially compared to any other party in the Middle East.

So, pointing out facts of Israel's crimes will be considered anti-Semitic unless one also points out that other countries also break international laws etc?

Hmm.

What proportion of criticism of Israel would not be considered anti-Semitic - is anything above 0% considered too much for you?

-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's

So, the Jewish British MP Gerald Kaufman was being anti-Semitic when he did exactly this in the UK Houses of Parliament? I note you don't say 'unfairly' or 'untruthfully' - just making a comparison is enough to be labelled anti-semite. Hmm.

-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the media and the financial markets

But presumably, not exagerating the influence is ok. I guess it would be hard to argue there's no lobbying going on.

-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

It's a shame you couldn't make that one even vaguely stick - but had to come up with a 'Bobby Ewing' moment - 'I saw it in a dream once' m'lud, honest.

Three strikes and you are out!

You fit the bill!

What an active imagination you have. Did you really think I'd not ask you to provide evidence that I was full of 'intense hatred' and denied Aushwitz existed?

Please tell me you have not just based your slurs on the above list!

Rather by down here than join you in your hatred!

What hatred would that be FD? I'm still chuckling that you may have thought you'd get me angry by making baseless allegations which you have singularly failed to back up with a shred of evidence. 10 out of 10 for re-defining anti-semitism, 0 out of 10 for showing that it applies to me.

Are you foaming at the mouth? Is it really a normal reaction to repeat your beliefs when asked for evidence to back up your slurs?

As for Hamas and the holocaust I stated want I wanted to state in this thread and we have discussed this already many times. You think Hamas is not anti-semitic, I think they are: based on their convenant and subsequent actions.

I quoted what Hamas has to say on the subject - in full. It appears 'you can't handle the truth' - and prefer your version of events, despite the facts.

Facts vs Pulp Fiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

The Jordanians tried it. The Lebanese tried it. The Syrians tried it. The Egyptians tried it.

I always thought they were fool to attack israel when israel itself was established by the same powers that had determined the borders of these Arab nations.

I also like to mention that back in the 1960's all these Arap countries had proxy governments working for the interest of allies. So I feel that they too were used as part of this political agenda to strengthen the solidarity for israel's existance and its expansion on the palestinian land.

Don't underestimate them.

In today's world I don't think any one nation can underestimate the power of the other due to close communications/alliances and well established arms/defence industry, experience/political knowledge.
Also, No country is on the same political stance and wealth, as was back in the 60's.
And I don't think israel itself can dare to challenge to knock down and drag any nation out as it wishes without the support of global player/s.

Dubai Knight wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:In spite of the weapons Israel possesses, would Israel survive the onslaught of the surrounding countries? Unlikely.

(Leans over an quietly whispers in that feline ear)
Er...The 6 Day War? Yom Kippur?
The Jordanians tried it. The Lebanese tried it. The Syrians tried it. The Egyptians tried it. They all got well and truly whupped despite massive advantages in numbers and weapons.

Back in the 1960's Israel did not have the full economic support it enjoys today, yet it proved it was certainly able to defend itself when it comes to a knock down and drag out.

Don't underestimate them.



Knight

Never underestimate the enemy, but there is strength in numbers and if the surrounding countries united and acted as one, well, there is the possibility that Israel could end up a dust pile. Remember, no one actually knows what Iran holds.

^on the military front, I think that Israel had been dining out on its past military victories for a few decades - they did get a shock in the Yom Kippur war, but they had got over that.

When Hezbollah won in Lebanon the first time round and Israel left Lebanon, it appears they did so grudgingly and always wanted to go back 'and teach them a lesson'. It rankled the Israelis that these guys were Lebanese freedom fighters whose simple aim was to evict the invaders of their country (they were set up after the Israeli invasion).

The shock though really came in 2006 when Israel lost the war they started (unnecessarily, and pointlessy as it turned out) with Hezbollah. They lost militarily (according to Israel's own objectives) and morally. The military goals were to release the 2 soldiers captured (who Hezbollah said they were willing to exchange for prisoners - and said this the day after they captured the soldiers), destroy Hezbollah militarily etc. They achieved none of these goals, but just killed over 1000 Lebanese.

The two soldiers were eventually exchanged for the prisoners - so Hezbollah kept their word, and Israel came out look like bully boys who had the rudest awakening of their lives.

So, the campaign to reinstill their view of themselves as undefeatable grew stronger and stronger, and eventually led to the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel that was the Gaza bombings and invasion. Wanton destruction that achieved precisely zero military objectives and was launched on a lie.

Israelis broke a ceasefire that was holding on Nov 4 2008, then used the retaliation as an excuse for launching the cynical war. All the while lying through their teeth that the ceasefire was broken by 'Hamas Rockets' and that was the reason they had to go and bomb the largest open prison in the world.

There, the reasons for bombing was probably achieved - they wanted to show that they can indeed cause mass destruction of people who can't really fight back. In the meantime Shalit still remains captive and the smear campaigns against Palestinians continues.


Oh, and under the 'new improved' definitions of anti-Semitism (which, did you notice, makes NO reference to Judaism!) - saying the above makes you an anti-semite who is full of hatred and who denies what the Nazis did in Germany/Poland etc 60 years ago!

'In your dreams, buddy' takes on a whole new meaning after this thread!

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora wrote:
Never underestimate the enemy, but there is strength in numbers and if the surrounding countries united and acted as one, well, there is the possibility that Israel could end up a dust pile. Remember, no one actually knows what Iran holds.

Its a long way from Iran to Israel and there is that other 'I' in between - Iraq. And we know who rules the roost there right now.

The surrounding countries did actually gang up for the 6 day war, and still got thrashed. It gave Israel the chance to occupy most of the Sinai Peninsula as well.

If the tanks roll in, be prepared to be disappointed. A cornered rat can be doubly aggressive.



Knight