Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

In the run up to the Gaza bombings in 2008/9 a truce had been in effect in Gaza. It is now an established fact that Israel broke the truce on Nov 4 2008 (election day in the US) and then during the bombing of Gaza repeatedly blamed Hamas for breaking the truce by firing rockets into Israel.


Ok, first let's agree on what happened on Nov 4 and whether Israel's actions were calculated to break the truce on purpose or not. Israeli troops clashed with Hamas and then Israel launched airstrikes within Gaza. Here's what Haaretz said:

.. Last week's "ticking tunnel," dug ostensibly to facilitate the abduction of Israeli soldiers, was not a clear and present danger: Its existence was always known and its use could have been prevented on the Israeli side, or at least the soldiers stationed beside it removed from harm's way.
Advertisement

It is impossible to claim that those who decided to blow up the tunnel were simply being thoughtless. The military establishment was aware of the immediate implications of the measure, as well as of the fact that the policy of "controlled entry" into a narrow area of the Strip leads to the same place: an end to the lull. That is policy - not a tactical decision by a commander on the ground.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1037571.html

I.e. it was a tactical decision to break the truce, and there was no strategic reason or imminent threat that merited the attack.

Ok, now let's examine the timeline.

First this is CNN looking into the issue and admitting that the facts show Israel broke the truce:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/07/rare-t ... ire-first/

Now, Mark Regev conceding the point about Hamas not firing rockets:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/16/regev- ... ceasefire/

But here is a definitive timeline of events showing that the truce was broken on Nov 4 by Israel's attack:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/15/chrono ... ceasefire/


However, Flying Dutchman maintains that rockets fired by Palestinians broke the truce.

But the point is that, as the CNN piece shows, Israel maintained that it had to launch Operation Cast Lead because Hamas had broken the truce and was firing rockets into Israel. This cynical lie is exposed - the truce was holding and no rockets were being fired into Israel at the point Israel chose to break the truce on November 4th.

Edit: Another interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ej-h6_C ... feature=iv

Cheers,
Shafique

In the Palestinian Push for Peace thread, the following fact is what is being disputed by FD:

2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)


The fact is in two parts - 1. Israel broke the truce (see articles above which clearly document this happened on Nov 4 2008) and 2. that Israel lied about this and blamed Hamas.


It appears that FD has a different recollection about the second part - now the argument appears to be that the truce was broken before Nov 4. This is an interesting interpretation, and one I'm sure that we should be able to verify one way or another. I therefore await the evidence.

Cheers,
Shafique

Mate, how you gonna have a truce when millions of Palestinians people are being denied the right to their lands, freedom of movement by an apartheid government like Israeli.

There will be no true truce unless the core of the problem being addressed. Which’s, the right of return to homeless Palestinian to their countries, Israel pulls out from occupied territories, Israel pull out of Lebanon and Syrian territories, Israel respect international human right treaty, Israel shows willingness for peaceful existence and embrace the Arab Peace Initiative or the United Nation peace resolution.

Once that’s done, you can only expect a lasting truce.

You can’t just imprison people and expect them to be quiet while you are enjoying a good life. Just put yourself in the shoes of those Palestinian, and imagine you can’t send you kids to school just because of Israel’s occupation and restriction, or you parent’s home demolished to only be occupied illegally, or your son/daughter/dad/mom/brother/wife/husband killed or put in prison for not saying yes the occupation and degrading life, etc etc. What would you do if you were in their shoes? Just imagine it for a second.

All valid points Humbleman, however I posted the evidence above to make the specific point that Israel lied when it claimed Hamas broke the truce and used this to justify the killing of over 1000 Palestinians in Gaza.

Cheers,
Shafique

So, I take it there is now no dissension over the fact that Israel broke the truce on Nov 4 2008 and subsequently lied about Hamas breaking the truce by firing rockets.

Speak now, or forever hold your peace (or present evidence contrary to the facts shown above).

Cheers,
Shafique

Humbleman wrote:There will be no true truce unless the core of the problem being addressed. Which’s, the right of return to homeless Palestinian to their countries, Israel pulls out from occupied territories, Israel pull out of Lebanon and Syrian territories, Israel respect international human right treaty, Israel shows willingness for peaceful existence and embrace the Arab Peace Initiative or the United Nation peace resolution.

Once that’s done, you can only expect a lasting truce.

Interesting that you donot speak of peace, but of a truce. Peace will only be possible once people realize Israel is here to stay and will not commit national suicide. Once Arabs stop their incitement against Israel their will be a possibility of peace.

The following events broke the truce before November 2008:

-rocket and mortar fire from Gaza into Israel
-terrorist infiltration from Gaza into Nahal Oz (an Israeli border town)
-several instances of cross border fire from Gaza at Israeli soldiers patrolling the border

The facts remain though - Israel broke the truce on Nov 4 2008 then proceeded to lie about it being Hamas breaking the truce by firing rockets.

It is interesting that you don't seem to want to address this lie of Israel (that Hamas fired rockets and broke the truce) but are now trying to re-write history and imply that it was the Palestinians who broke the truce.

The crucial point is that AT THE TIME, Israel did not use the line that the few rockets fired at the start of the truce were the reason they bombed Gaza - but rather they were blatantly lying by blaming Hamas' rockets which were all launched AFTER Israel had broken the truce on Nov 4.

The fact that FD does not address any of the quotes or interviews above speaks volumes. FD seems to concede that in fact Hamas did not break the truce by firing rockets (it didn't fire rockets before Nov 4 - as even Mark Regev concedes) and yet Israel explicitly blamed Hamas for breaking the truce by firing rockets. Therefore I presume that FD agrees that Israel told blatant lies about this (the CNN interview looks at this specific point and shows that the Palestinians were telling the truth)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It is interesting that you don't seem to want to address this lie of Israel (that Hamas fired rockets and broke the truce) but are now trying to re-write history and imply that it was the Palestinians who broke the truce.

I see no argument that rockets were fired from Hamas controlled Gaza before November. Also no argument about cross border fire before November. Next to that Hamas had some failed kidnap attempts of IDF soldiers before November, so the threat of a tunnel into Israel was very real.
But I see the pattern across multiple threads, Israel is not allowed to defend itself. If it does defend it civilian cities it is a genocidal agressor. Israel should just sit and do nothing when its enemies want to annihilate its population. Not gonna happen, which must be disappointing to some.

And you mustn't presume so much, it borders to troll like behaviour.

So, in summary, you agree that Israel lied when it said Hamas had broken the truce by firing rockets.

The other points are irrelevant and weren't brought up at the time Israel was blaming Hamas rockets for breaking the truce. Hamas did not fire rockets, and in fact stopped the few rockets that were fired being repeated, the truce held, then on Nov 4 2008 Israel broke the truce by launching a strategic, premeditated attack against a target that did not pose any immediate threat to Israel.

Therefore, as the CNN item above makes clear, Israel's lies about who broke the truce and how are now proven to be just lies.

I see a pattern that you want to portray anyone who speaks the truth about Israel (and backs this up with evidence) as someone who has an irrational hatred of Israel. Sorry, the facts are above are presented quite impassionately and quite calmly present the evidence that Israel was not protecting itself when it broke the truce, nor was it protecting itself when it lied about who broke the truce.

You were very quick to blame Hezbollah for 'provoking' Israel into attacking Lebanon, but yet you are very slow to accept that Israel provoked Hamas on Nov 4 by breaking the truce. Therefore, if Hezbollah is to blame for Israel's bombs on Lebanon, then Israel is to blame for Hamas' rockets on Sderot fired after Nov 4 2008.

It is your logic, after all, not mine. My stance is to condemn any attacks on civilians - whoever is firing.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bump for eh - to emphasise the evidence for Memri's assertion that Hamas broke the truce is a lie.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, first off, quote Memri directly.

Then we'll see if what Memri said was factually accurate.

hey eh - perhaps you can let your blogger friend 'elder' know that it is relatively easy to look up what actually happened when Israel broke the truce in 2008 - he doesn't have to remain in loonville labouring under the misconception that Israel's version of events is true. (I mean, if Regev is admitting the facts, who does elder think he is?)

Another reason for bumping this thread is to show what lying about facts really looks like. Israel blamed Hamas for breaking the truce and explicitly said Hamas rockets broke the truce. This is comprehensively false and undisputed now.

Hamas did offer a long term truce after the 2008 expired, with the reasonable proviso that Israel actually honour the truce agreements and loosen the siege (Israel failed to live up to its bargain in the 6 month truce, whilst Hamas did).

Cheers,
Shafique

Seriously troll ? Memri !? How can you even expect to have a resonable discussion with anyone who takes memri and fox as gospel !

If tommorow Memri announced the Sun is going to rise from the East I would stop believing that !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eas ... _Institute

MEMRI's work has been attacked on three grounds: that their work is biased; that they choose articles to translate selectively so as to give an unrepresentative view of the media they are reporting on; and that their translations are often inaccurate.

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian "My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation,to further the political agenda of Israel." "MEMRI's website does not mention you [Carmon] or your work for Israeli intelligence. Nor does it mention MEMRI's co-founder, Meyrav Wurmser, and her extreme brand of Zionism.... Given your political background, it's legitimate to ask whether MEMRI is a trustworthy vehicle."

CNN correspondent Atika Shubert and Arabic translators accused MEMRI of mistranslating portions of a Palestinian children's television programme."Media watchdog MEMRI translates one caller as saying - quote - 'We will annihilate the Jews,"' said Shubert. "But, according to several Arabic speakers used by CNN, the caller actually says 'The Jews are killing us."'

Israel blamed Hamas for breaking the truce and explicitly said Hamas rockets broke the truce. This is comprehensively false and undisputed now.

News to me.

For the record, any rocket fire from the Gaza strip would have technically broken the truce. There was rocket fire from Gaza into Israel throughout the six months.

Claiming that the Israeli bombing of a Hamas tunnel leading into Israel broke the truce is another loon version of history. Simply put, after the six month truce expired, Hamas, not Israel, opted against extending it.

Hamas did offer a long term truce after the 2008 expired

Let's see the quotes.

Hopefully you've found new articles which actually say this.

Hamas did offer a long term truce after the 2008 expired

Which wasn't the same as a continuation of the six month truce.

Apples and oranges, snowflake.

with the reasonable proviso that Israel actually honour the truce agreements and loosen the siege

Ah, no. This article doesn't say that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7797144.stm

Hopefully you're not twisting the two articles into one.

-- Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:06 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:Seriously troll ? Memri !? How can you even expect to have a resonable discussion with anyone who takes memri and fox as gospel !

If tommorow Memri announced the Sun is going to rise from the East I would stop believing that !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eas ... _Institute

MEMRI's work has been attacked on three grounds: that their work is biased; that they choose articles to translate selectively so as to give an unrepresentative view of the media they are reporting on; and that their translations are often inaccurate.

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian "My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation,to further the political agenda of Israel." "MEMRI's website does not mention you [Carmon] or your work for Israeli intelligence. Nor does it mention MEMRI's co-founder, Meyrav Wurmser, and her extreme brand of Zionism.... Given your political background, it's legitimate to ask whether MEMRI is a trustworthy vehicle."

CNN correspondent Atika Shubert and Arabic translators accused MEMRI of mistranslating portions of a Palestinian children's television programme."Media watchdog MEMRI translates one caller as saying - quote - 'We will annihilate the Jews,"' said Shubert. "But, according to several Arabic speakers used by CNN, the caller actually says 'The Jews are killing us."'

SnowflakeII, let me know of a news organization that doesn't receive any criticism for being bias.

Personally, I think it's great that you want to filter any source based on its biases or mistakes in its journalism.

Unfortunately, I don't think we would be left with any websites to link to if we dismissed every article because of what website it happened to have come from.

But hey, if you want to quote wikipedia for criticism against a news network, two can play at that game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC

event horizon wrote:

Israel blamed Hamas for breaking the truce and explicitly said Hamas rockets broke the truce. This is comprehensively false and undisputed now.

News to me.

It appears loons have short memories.

Ok, now let's examine the timeline.

First this is CNN looking into the issue and admitting that the facts show Israel broke the truce:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/07/rare-t ... ire-first/
..

Pretty definitive proof - Israel lied when it said categorically that Hamas firing rockets broke the ceasefire, when in fact it did on Nov 4th 2008. CNN's piece above looks at this specific point.

Cheers,
Shafique

So, let's review.

Israel lied when it said Hamas firing rockets broke the 2008 ceasefire, as explicitly addressed by CNN's review:

Ok, now let's examine the timeline.

First this is CNN looking into the issue and admitting that the facts show Israel broke the truce:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/07/rare-t ... ire-first/
..

Pretty definitive proof - Israel lied when it said categorically that Hamas firing rockets broke the ceasefire, when in fact it did on Nov 4th 2008.


eh also bizarely says that Memri is no different from other 'news organisations' (perhaps he's thinking of the National Enquirer or 'The Onion'?) when shown evidence it has cooked up false news items by deliberately mistranslating items and selectively editing pretty much everything else. (So, another quaint belief on the part of eh).

But note that no refutation of the sins of Memri. Speaks volumes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Quoting where I only say 'news to me' and mumbling on about a point that I was not addressing or making is an interesting tactic.

News to me.

For the record, any rocket fire from the Gaza strip would have technically broken the truce. There was rocket fire from Gaza into Israel throughout the six months.

Claiming that the Israeli bombing of a Hamas tunnel leading into Israel broke the truce is another loon version of history. Simply put, after the six month truce expired, Hamas, not Israel, opted against extending it.

Who broke the truce and who lied about it being broken by Hamas rockets?

Israel.

Now, we've established the facts in reality (rather than loon-ville) - what are you complaining about now? If you disagree with the facts, write to CNN.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Who broke the truce and who lied about it being broken by Hamas rockets?

Israel.

Now, we've established the facts in reality (rather than loon-ville) - what are you complaining about now? If you disagree with the facts, write to CNN.

Cheers,
Shafique

Depends on who you ask.

But it's silly to claim that an Israeli attack broke the truce when Palestinian rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel.

What we both agree on is that Hamas was against an extension of the truce, not Israel - there is no denying that.

I agree, if you ask loons for their version of history you'll get all these fanciful fantasies.

If you check the historical record (heck even CNN did a fact check), we find that Israel lied, Hamas offered to extend the truce etc.

QED

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I agree, if you ask loons for their version of history you'll get all these fanciful fantasies.

If you check the historical record (heck even CNN did a fact check), we find that Israel lied, Hamas offered to extend the truce etc.

QED

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, what part in the video did the CNN reporters or the Pal-Arab politician claim that Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire?

Perhaps I missed it....

You do miss a lot of things, that's true.

Did you miss the part where CNN punked the Israelis and exposed their lies about Hamas rockets breaking the truce?

Cheers,
Shafique

eh is persisting with his line:

event horizon wrote:No denial there. What I said was 100% correct. Hamas, not Israel, called the truce off. That Hamas ended the truce well over a month after an alleged Israeli violation of the truce should show that Israel did not break off the ceasefire.

It's a bizare bit of logic - Israel breaks truce on November 4th 2008 (nothing 'alleged about that', but young eh blames Hamas for not renewing a truce that Israel had already broken?

That's some mental gymnastics eh - have you met anyone who doesn't laugh when you tell this?

But at least it is an ingenious way to get round the evidence that Israel did break the truce on Nov 8 and then lied about Hamas breaking the truce by firing rockets? I mean, with Regev admitting that Hamas did not fire rockets - it pulls the rug right out from under that particular lie doesn't it? CNN's evidence must really make you want to cry.

But I love the double-think argument that Hamas called off the already-dead truce in December! Nice one.

Cheers,
Shafique

If the truce was broken on November 4th (not 8th as you incorrectly claimed), why would Hamas need to officially end the truce on December 20th ?

I thought there was no truce to end ?

The facts are that Hamas officially decided on nixing a renewal of the truce and prompted Israel into retaliating after Israel was hit with hundreds of Hamas rockets and mortars.

eh - unfortunately for you this thread is about whether Israel lied when it said Hamas rockets broke the ceasefire and this was used as a reason to attack Gaza and kill over 1000 Palestinians.

CNN's factcheck states this explicitly, as does Barghouti:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/07/rare-t ... ire-first/

Israel lied about Hamas breaking the ceasefire first, when the facts were it broke the ceasefire on Nov 4.

The lie told by Israel was NOT Hamas did not renew the ceasefire in December and hence we decided to bomb Gaza - the lie was that Hamas broke the truce with rockets. It didn't. That was the lie, and they were caught out.

Here's Regev admitting to the fact:
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/01/16/regev- ... ceasefire/

Cheers,
Shafique

Gaddie being in Canada maybe you should start off with canvasing Harpers govts about the blind support it gives to Israel. All your rantings are baseless when you and your own govt is part of the problem.

Living in democracy and free country you can actually achieve more than you cut and paste trolling here !

Indiansummer - try and calm down. You're on course to be banned - again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Third time's the charm

Talking about Gaza, it becomes more and more clear that more combattants were killed than civilians.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e133.htm

Fathi Hamad, the Hamas administration's interior minister, revealed that as many as 700 Hamas military-security operatives were killed during Operation Cast Lead. The number, consistent with Israel's examination, is significantly higher than the biased numbers given in the past by Hamas and used by the Goldstone Report to defame Israel.

Also taking into consideration that according to the red cross in modern day warfare 1 combattant is killed for 10 civilians, it certainly proves the IDF is amongst the most moral armies, if not THE most moral army.