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Apologies for cross posting, but this was too funny to stay in the Religion forum.

eh thought he had struck gold and started a thread to bring to the world the news that Non-Muslims are viewed as guilty by Islam:
philosophy-dubai/non-muslims-are-guilty-t42272.html#p340063

event horizon wrote:So, I googled 'non-Muslims are guilty' into google and it turns out that more prominent Muslims besides Choudary hold this particular belief:

A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.

A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.

"Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet," the Imam says, according to the report. "If you don't believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html

So, Fox news is quoting a Q&A session by a Muslim Preacher in London (the Fox news story is from 1 April 2008 - but doesn't appear to be an April Fool's joke )

It does give the link to the Islam Watch web page though:
http://www.islam-watch.org/AyeshaAhmed/ ... -Sunna.htm

And there, we find that the whole Q&A was a fictional account:

Editor Note:

The question / answer session is a satirical and fictional account based on Quranic verses and statements of Muslims who unfortunately take some hateful teachings of the Quran literally. Some readers have been mistaking it as a genuine conversation. Also according to East London Mosque Abdul Makin was never employed by them although he and his fellow convicted perverters of justice did lie about being at the Mosque at the time listening to one of Abdul's speeches there.

Moral of the story - don't believe what Fox News tells you and certainly don't believe young naive Islamophobes who quote Fox News as if it were a reputable news source!



If I'm honest, I feel a bit sorry for our young friend.

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh, I forgot to add - to compound eh's embarassment he said in the same thread:

Islamic scholar, Abdul Makin, also said that non-Muslims are guilty of not believing in allah and are to be treated accordingly. Obviously that's different from just using the phrase 'you're guilty of being alive', now isn't it ?

When in actual fact Abdul Makin is a rapist who claimed he was preaching in a mosque when he carried out the rape. The Islam Watch satirical piece was in reaction to this claim he was preaching. (No Muslim preacher, to my knowledge, has condoned rape)

The BBC got the story straight:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7301975.stm

Cheers,
Shafique

(No Muslim preacher, to my knowledge, has condoned rape)

Right, because there is no concept of statutory or marital rape in Islam.

We also agree that Muslims do not see having relations with 'slave' women as rape, which is what the Koran and saying of Muhammad allow (as we've already been down this path before).

No argument there.

Sorry, what was that..

Did I read an embarrassed admission of being punked badly?

No?

Perhaps eh still thinks Abdul Makin - a 20 something rapist - is indeed a scholar of Islam? Or are you still in shock that Fox News thought a fictitious q&a dreamt up by an Islamophobe was a news account?

You're not having a good week are you eh - first 120,000 odd racist Israelis make a mockery of your insistence there's is no Zionist apartheid policy in Israel, Israel finally throws in the towel and eases the siege and you end up making FoxNews and yourself look like fools for thinking a rapist is a scholar of Islam and said the ridiculous things dreamt up by Islam Watch.

Cheers,
Shafique

One thing at a time.

Do you agree that statutory rape is allowed in Islam?

Do you think you'll succeed in changing the topic about you making a fool of yourself by stating Abdul Makin was a respected Islamic Scholar?

Look on the bright side eh - now that the loons have been exposed as gullible fools who need an 'Editor's note' to tell them that a loon article was a work of fiction, perhaps you'll now learn that you should look up references and not believe loon propaganda as gospel. (And you should perhaps tell you fellow countrymen at FoxNews the same - but I think that will be a futile gesture)

FoxNews punked you badly - no Islamic preacher has condoned rape of non-Muslims or rape in general, and you thought that the invented q&a with the rapist was real is what this thread is about - it is really about looking on the funny side of the discussion.

BTW the loon site 'Islamwatch' would have posted a real quote from a real Imam if they could find one - they couldn't, so they made it up. The problem is that you and other loons thought it was real!

(I'll be happy to discuss Islam's teachings on rape in the religion forum, and will be more than happy to hear what you have to say about the Bible's teachings in relation to marital rape for example. But we would also have to cover why you think the 32,000 virgins that were enslaved by the Israelites after their families were slaughtered weren't raped.. )

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: But we would also have to cover why you think the 32,000 virgins that were enslaved by the Israelites after their families were slaughtered weren't raped.. )

Cheers,
Shafique

Maybe they were all ugly?



Knight

^I've heard weirder theories, so I guess it's plausible.



Cheers,
Shafique

"They threatened that if I don't get her married to Guddu, they would kill her," Masih said. "One of them said, 'We attended an Islamic religious convention, and the speaker said if you marry a non-Muslim or rape a non-Muslim girl, you will get 70 virgins in heaven."

Yes there are Muslim scholars who believe in raping non-believers. This is possibly a belief stemming from the practice of earlier Islamic armies when they took tens of thousands of women with them as slave girls as punishment against cities that the Islamic armies took by force - hadith do confirm this practice was around during Muhammad's time.

However, it seems like you should go to Pakistan to tell the religious scholars there that they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/co ... tan/21649/

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

Oh, and the following hadith refers to Muhammad's 'marriage' to Safiya. The prophet was such a gentleman, wasn't he?

LoL.

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

Muhammad was a feminist.

eh - what has any of the above post got to do with FoxNews reporting a loon fictional report as fact? (And the fact you quoted it as fact too, despite the loon author having a disclaimer to explain to loons that she was making it up!)

Are, by any chance,you giving us other examples of loon fantasies that you think are facts as well?

We thank you for the laughs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Reminds me of the time when the BBC incorrectly claimed that the charter of the NLFT called for the establishment of a Christian theocracy.

For some reason you dished out excuse after excuse on behalf of the BBC.

Funny that.

Now, as for rape in Islam, do you consider men taking women as hostages/prisoners and having their way with 'em that very night to be rape?

The quotes are above, just scroll up if you need to read them again.

Oh, and it would be interesting if a neutral third party gave their opinion on the previous passages.

I would guess that not everyone would view those passages to be as 'liberating' to women as you would/will try to spin them as.

10/10 for effort. 0/10 for effectiveness.

The subject still remains - FoxNews passes off loon fantasy as fact, eh tries (unsuccessfully) to pass off loon fantasy rapist as 'Islamic Scholar'.

Will you ever acknowledge that you were punked? (Thanks for keeping this topic at the top though - much appreciated).

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:Oh, and it would be interesting if a neutral third party gave their opinion on the previous passages.

Coming from Norse ancestry (please note I do not use the term 'Viking' as this actually refers to the action of undertaking raids upon the unwary and undefended with the purpose of securing wealth, livestock and slaves by dint of violent seizure) I am prone to the odd bit of rape and pillage.

Society has thankfully moved on in most of the world.

However there are still places where the infliction of terror on the civilian population by military forces through the use of torture, murder and rape is still practiced. Let loose a bunch of kids with AK47's and as many bullets as they can eat, and you will find that the law and common sense disappear as fast as rainwater in a desert. We are still members of the animal kingdom and those instincts are barely held in check by society. Remove that enforced sense of order and we revert to our often animalistic tendencies.

In our modern world, rapine can more commonly be defined as 'Acquisition and Mergers'...



Knight

Excellent. I'm sure eh can use the above to justify the Biblical verses which explicitly allow rape (with a waiting period of one month) and the get-out-clause that you can discard them if they don't satisfy:
philosophy-dubai/rape-allowed-bible-t42303.html

At least we should be grateful of small mercies. The only evidence of Muslims condoning rape in this thread are
1. A made up story from loon central - of a convicted, incarcerated rapist who they are passing off as a scholar
2. a link to a statement by another convicted rapist (saying he heard somewhere that if he raped he would get 72 virgins)


I'm sure that eh is busy scouring the excuses of other convicted rapists to build his case further (and hopefully is checking to see whether the accounts were just made up or not).


Cheers,
Shafique

Of course that passage from the Bible doesn't allow rape.

Otherwise the early Muslims, Muhammad, Ali, etc included, who took women back to their tents the very night they were captured would all be rapists!

Nice back-peddle eh. Very smooth. (not)

Anyway, thanks for sharing your loon versions of history. It's a shame that Islam does not allow s.ex outside of marriage, whilst the verse in the other thread from Deut says it is ok to ravage a captive and then discard her if she doesn't satisfy you. A bit harsh, me thinks. But as long as you don't think it's rape - I guess it is ok.

Cheers,
Shafique