Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Taliban

Topic locked
  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
So, no dispute that more than 50% of your fellow Americans believe
that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.


Now, given that not all Americans are Christian - that implies that most Christians in America reject science (as, by definition, the non-Christians - atheists etc - will be the ones who reject the Biblical account and go with science).

No amount of name-calling will divert attention away from this simple 'suprising' fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
Actually, only 45% of American Muslims accept evolution. And I suspect it is only this high because of the number of educated Indian and Pak professionals who immigrate here.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
You and your 'suspicions' and yet another unreferenced statistic.

Did you confirm what the latest proportion of Americans who believe that
that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.
is?

They only believe this because they take the Bible's creation explanation over that of science.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
Please don't divert the topic. The thread is about whether or not the US is more fundamentalist than other societies.

Do you agree that the stats show that Pakistanis, by and large, support the death penalty for such offenses as blasphemy, apostasy and adultery?

...And that Muslims accept evolution in far smaller percentages than Americans do?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
Whose changing the topic?

Chomsky makes his claim based on the statistic of how many Americans believe
that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.


Therefore we should look at the same statistic in other countries. You've failed to do so - in fact you've failed to even update the stats on how many Americans still believe this 'Biblical fact'.

I'm not aware of Muslim nations believing that science should be rejected when it comes to creation theory - certainly not the 50+% Chomsky quotes.



Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
I'm not aware of Muslim nations believing that science should be rejected when it comes to creation theory - certainly not the 50+% Chomsky quotes.


Really? You're not aware that creationism is officially taught in Saudi Arabia and the Sudan or where evolution is taught, human evolution is edited out of the curriculum?

Oh, and it seems like you're conflating the teaching of evolution with creationist beliefs. Evolution (sans human evolution) is taught in some places in Pakistan, but most Pakistanis reject evolution.

Regardless, it speaks volumes about Chomsky's methodology if he measures 'fundamentalism' only using ones belief in creationism as the criteria for being a fundamentalist.

Muslims are religious fanatics in many ways that most American Christians are not - most Americans do not support the death penalty for adultery, apostasy and blasphemy. Americans do not support grizzly punishments such as limb chopping, crucifixion, stoning and lashing.

Most American Christians do not believe that homosexuality should be illegal and punishable with death or prison time or some other harsh punishment. The previous should highlight Chomsky's tunnel vision and why people are correct in labeling him a left wing loon and dismiss his 'insights'.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
So, what is the latest proportion of your fellow Americans that believe the Bible's version of creation is true and science is wrong?

Are you ashamed to look up this figure and compare it with other nations?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 08, 2010
What is the proportion of Pakistanis who support stoning adulterers?

Are you ashamed to compare this figure to the number of American Christians who support the stoning of adulterers?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
What's the matter eh - can't handle the truth?

So, what is the latest proportion of your fellow Americans that believe the Bible's version of creation is true and science is wrong?

Are you ashamed to look up this figure and compare it with other nations?


That's the criterion used by Chomsky and disputed by you - nothing to do with Pakistan and capital punishment (happy to compare relative rates in a separate thread - but as the Quran doesn't say adulterers should be stoned, I'm not sure what you're carping on about now)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
shafique wrote:What's the matter eh - can't handle the truth?

So, what is the latest proportion of your fellow Americans that believe the Bible's version of creation is true and science is wrong?

Are you ashamed to look up this figure and compare it with other nations?


That's the criterion used by Chomsky and disputed by you - nothing to do with Pakistan and capital punishment (happy to compare relative rates in a separate thread - but as the Quran doesn't say adulterers should be stoned, I'm not sure what you're carping on about now)

Cheers,
Shafique


What part of this quote didn't you understand? Was it the word 'assuming'?

event horizon wrote:What part of assuming Chomsky's claim to be correct (which it isn't) did you not understand?

Half of Americans who supposedly believe in Creationism is a lower % than the % of Pakistanis who support stoning for adulterers.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Yeah, thanks for making my point for me.

We should compare like with like - capital punishment that is not in the Quran is not related to Americans believing the Bible's story of creation above that of science.

So, again - what is the latest proportion of Americans who reject science and believe the Bible's account that man was created a few thousand years ago?

Are you ashamed of the answer?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Suddenly shifting the goal posts?

Muslim fundamentalists are no less fundamentalist just because the Koran does not mention the stoning of married adulterers.


We should compare like with like - capital punishment that is not in the Quran is not related to Americans believing the Bible's story of creation above that of science.


No, we're comparing religious extremism/fundamentalism. That is like with like.

You really are the dumbest member here that you needed to come up with that argument.

That the Koran does not mention certain punishments obviously does not that these sick punishments don't have a place in Islam.

So, again - what is the latest proportion of Americans who reject science and believe the Bible's account that man was created a few thousand years ago?


Great - let's see the passage from the Bible stating the earth is a few thousand years old.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
I'm not shifting any goalposts.

Chomsky's words (which you quoted in the first post) are about the more than half of Americans who believe that science is wrong and that
that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.


This belief is based on a literal interpretation of the Bible and hence he makes the case that the US is more fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

Chomsky's quote of statistics so far remain unchallenged - I'm still waiting to hear from you what the latest % of Americans who believe the Bible's version over Science is. (I'm expecting it is lower, but still above 40%). Then we can compare it with what other countries believe (all European countries have lower %'s for example).

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
This belief is based on a literal interpretation of the Bible and hence he makes the case that the US is more fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.


Which passage?

Oh, and where did Chomsky say that Muslims were only fundamentalists if they believed the absurdities in the Koran?

Am I to believe that Chomsky does not consider Muslims who take all hadith literally are not Muslim fundamentalists?

What a ridiculous argument.

I'm still waiting to hear from you what the latest % of Americans who believe the Bible's version over Science is.


Uh-huh.

Well, we've already seen that strong Muslim majorities believe in Creationism and the teaching of evolution in Saudi Arabia and Sudan is taboo.

The belief that humans are linked to lower primates is universally dismissed by Muslims, including so called 'moderates'.

So, it looks like, without a doubt, that the % of Muslims who believe the Koran over science is much higher than American Christians.

And, actually, only 45% of American Muslims believe in evolution, as well.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
So, what is the % of Americans who believe
that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.


Is it still above 50%?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
shafique wrote:So, what is the % of Americans who believe
that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.


Is it still above 50%?

Cheers,
Shafique


Not in the Bible, doesn't count.

Thanks for the epic fail.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Ah the loon is running away.

Noam Chomsky: We must bear in mind that the US is a very fundamentalist society, perhaps more than any other society in the world – even more fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia* or the Taliban**. That's very surprising. About half of the [US] population believes that all living species were created 6,000 years ago in their current form.



PS - here's a link to Gallup's surveys and the questions specifically relating to the Bible:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/21811/americ ... igins.aspx

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
In September 2005, Gallup slightly altered the wording of this question as follows:

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings -- : human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life and God guided this process, human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life, but God had no part in this process, or God created human beings in their present form exactly the way the Bible describes it]?


God created man exactly how Bible describes it = 53% !!

The basic pattern of responses between these two ways of asking the question is quite similar. The minor wording changes appear to have resulted in a slight increase in the percentage of Americans choosing the literal biblical alternative rather than the "evolution with God's help" alternative.


Same article shows that it is the Christians who are the worst culprits - with 65% of those who regularly attend Church rejecting science, vs 35% of others. So close to two thirds of those attending church regularly in the States reject science and believe the Bible's version of creation. :shock:

(73% of religious Republicans believe the Bible over science.. which explains a lot!)

Wow.

Chomsky 1, eh 0 (again)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Where does the Bible say that the universe is 6000 years old?

Definitely
True Probably
True Probably
False Definitely
False Unsure
% % % % %

.


"Evolution -- that is, the idea that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life"


6/1-3/07
18 35 16 28 3


Well, the formatting didn't come out well, but over half of Americans accept that humans developed over millions of years.

I guess that means that, percentage wise, more than half of Americans are more scientifically minded than you are.

BTW, where does the Bible say the earth is 6000 years old?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
But why are you avoiding the bombshells that over 2/3rds of religious Republicans and especially those who only had a High School education, reject scientific explanations for creation and believe that Bible is literally true on this subject?

Chomsky seems to have been underestimating the extent of the fundamentalism in the US - the majority of religious people reject science according to the survey. The majority of those who don't regularly go to Church are on the side of science.

As for the basis for the 6000 years, I've bumped the thread on YEC in the religion forum, but here are some quotes:

Young Earth creationism (YEC) is a form of creationism that asserts the Heavens, Earth, and all life were created by direct acts of the Abrahamic God during a relatively short period, sometime between c. 5,700[1] and 10,000 years ago.[2] Its adherents are those Christians and Jews[3] who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs,[4][5] and include around 10-45% of American adults, depending on various polls.

...
YECs regard the Bible as a historically accurate, factually inerrant record of natural history. They accept its authority as the central organizing text for human life — the sole indisputable source of knowledge on every topic with which it deals. As Henry Morris, a leading YEC, explained it, Christians who flirt with less-than-literal readings of biblical texts are also flirting with theological disaster.[36][37] For the vast majority of YECs, an allegorical reading of the Genesis creation myth, the Fall of man, the deluge myth, and the Tower of Babel would undermine core Christian doctrines like the birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ. According to Morris, Christians must "either ... believe God's Word all the way, or not at all."[36] Therefore, YECs consider the Genesis creation myth as an historical account of the origin of the Earth and life, and that Bible-believing Christians must regard the Genesis 1-11 as historically accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Let me know which passage in the Bible says the earth is 6000 years old.

After that, we can compare the % of Muslims who believe in evolution in different Muslim countries to the % of Americans who believe in evolution.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
73% of religious Republicans reject science and believe the Bible's account of creation.

Incredible.

As for YEC - we've already got a thread in the religion forum (bumped to the top there) - there you can find the evidence used by the Christians who reject science.

Wow, 73%!!

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
The Bible doesn't say that the universe is six thousand years old.

Strange that you wanted to compare 'like' to 'like' - as if Muslims who want adulterers stoned would suddenly vanish (and as if religious radicalism was not in any rubbed off on them from the Koran).
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Just because you seem to disagree with the 73% of religious Republicans who do believe that the Bible trumps science, doesn't change Chomsky's point that the US is fundamentalist because so many of your fellow American Christians do believe in the Bible over science.

You seem to be labouring under the fantasy that I started this thread or quoted Chomsky - that's all on you. Just because you can't handle the truth that 73% (wow - 73%!) of your fellow Christian republicans disregard science and believe the Bible when it comes to creation, speaks volumes.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 09, 2010
Yes, for anyone who actually lives in the US, touting claims that half of Americans believe the earth is six thousand years old is pretty funny.

Anyways, it has already been shown that a larger % of Muslims in Muslim countries believe in Creationism than Americans do.

But anyone with common sense already knew this.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 10, 2010
America is a big country and there we may well have more Fundamentalist right wing types than is Saudi Arabia, also more moderate religious groups as we. Those groups are in the American south.

We even have a group so Fundamentalist that they refuse to use modern technology, called the Amish, who insist on living like the had hundred of years ago. They use horses and buggies.

We have large groups that aren't very religious at all.

In our Constitution it is stated the the government will not pass any laws regarding religion the idea is so that no one faith is superior to anybody else's faith.

Religious freedom is why many people left their lands to come to America. At the moment the fast growing religion is Islam.
GreenTiger
Dubai Forum Visitor
User avatar
Posts: 10
Location: United States

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 10, 2010
event horizon wrote:Yes, for anyone who actually lives in the US, touting claims that half of Americans believe the earth is six thousand years old is pretty funny.


See what happens when loons are presented with evidence.

They go into denial.

The stats actually show that 73% of eh's fellow religious republicans believe the Bible's account of creation above that of science. That's 3 in 4 !!

Of course, our young loon's response is 'I don't be believe it' - which is ironic! :)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 10, 2010
Snowflake, what evidence am I doubting?

I'm not pontificating on what Americans believe while living thousands of miles away.

I actually live in the States, so I know the 'evidence' is bs.

Sorry, being good at googling doesn't trump this.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist Than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 10, 2010
I fully understand you want to keep your head in the sand and deny the evidence that 73% of your fellow republican church going brethren believe that the Bible's account of creation trumps science (and they believe that man was created less than 10,000 years ago).

However, given that you jump up and down and insist your loon interpretations of Islam are true despite what Muslims who actually live Islam say, your protestations ring especially hollow.

You started this thread and quoted Chomsky stating that about half of your countrymen reject science and believe the Bible to be literally true when it comes to creation. As the Gallup poll shows, Chomsky was being a bit conservative - the figure amongst the church-going folk is much higher!

It seems to be a particularly American issue - the European Christians have embraced science in greater numbers.

Should you have any new evidence (other than 'I don't believe it') please present it.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Chomsky: US More Fundamentalist than Saudi Arabia, Talib Jul 10, 2010
I fully understand you want to keep your head in the sand and deny the evidence that 73% of your fellow republican church going brethren believe that the Bible's account of creation trumps science (and they believe that man was created less than 10,000 years ago).


Yes, keep on pontificating on American church attendance.

Perhaps you'll manage to convince someone with your ramblings that you actually know what you're talking about.

Meanwhile - care to tell me where the Bible says the universe is 6000 years old?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

posting in Dubai Politics TalkForum Rules

Return to Dubai Politics Talk