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event horizon · Oct 06, 2011

No, I don't think calling the Taliban or Wahabis/Saudi misogynistic is Islamophobic

That's not what I said, moron.

I said using the Taliban/Saudis as proof that Islam is especially misogynistic would get one branded an "Islamophobe".

Seriously, you're too stupid to be taken seriously.

Jewish schools similarly are facts. Karmi points out that their segregationism does stem from a view that they are chosen people.

What's the connection between Jews marching against fellow Jews and having a view that they are a chosen people?

Do you even bother to read posts?

shafique · Oct 06, 2011

You're that one that is floundering in your effort to brand me (and Karmi) as anti-semitic.

Karmi states that segregationism is a problem, and I agree with him. That's what the quote says.

The Jews marching in favour of Apartheid in schools are even more racist against non-Jews - that's the point. Segregationist by race, and by religion.

Stating these facts, and in context of article about Palestine, he's making very good points about the ills of segregating oneself from the 'other'.

Yes, unfortunately I do have to read through your long posts.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 06, 2011

"floundering in my effort" I've not seen an attempt to refute any point I've made against Karmi by you.

The Jews marching in favour of Apartheid in schools are even more racist against non-Jews - that's the point. Segregationist by race, and by religion.

Great, for the third time, let's see a logical connection between what you're mentioning and Jewish doctrine.

And how does alleged segregation in the Jewish state of Israel of non-Jews compare with intolerant policies against non-Muslims in Muslim states?

Is Jerusalem only for Jews? Are churches forbidden from being built? Are Jews and non-Jews in Israel unequal before the law? Are non-Jews prevented from leading Israel as Prime Minister?

Why pretend that there isn't an apartheid system in practice in Muslim countries that is rooted in Muslim doctrine?

Stating these facts, and in context of article about Palestine, he's making very good points about the ills of segregating oneself from the 'other'.

Here's one of his points:

Karmi wrote:But one would like to ask in this connection where does this division of the world’s peoples into Evil and Good come from? The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This [Jewish] doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

shafique · Oct 06, 2011

You simply haven't acknowledged the fact that FD deliberately misquoted Karmi and that I agreed with the point he was making about segregationism. Why is that?

The doctrine of segregationism is bad. I agree. Do you disagree?

He states that Jewish doctrine that splits humanity into Chosen and Gentiles is segregationism. I agree. Do you disagree?

Yes, I do believe that the discrimination faced by Israeli Arabs is real and a result of apartheid policies and attitudes. Religious edicts have been issued to not rent to Arab Israelis, for example. You can be in denial all you like about the apartheid - but that's a matter for a different thread - indeed, just do a search and you'll find all the evidence you need. eg
dubai-politics-talk/apartheid-comparison-from-those-who-know-t39766.html

Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 06, 2011

He states that Jewish doctrine that splits humanity into Chosen and Gentiles is segregationism. I agree. Do you disagree?

What's segregationist about it? Is it more segregationist than Muslim doctrine splitting the world between believer and unbeliever? Of Muslim belief that believers have more rights in a Muslim political system than non-Muslims?

Religious edicts have been issued to not rent to Arab Israelis, for example. You can be in denial all you like about the apartheid - but that's a matter for a different thread - indeed, just do a search and you'll find all the evidence you need. eg

Backwards view of cause and effect.

In other words, you're looking at specific events and saying it's caused by X. You have not provided a satisfactory explanation for how X will lead to your specific events. It's nothing more than pseudo-analysis.

I'm curious why you've avoided answering my previous questions.

shafique · Oct 06, 2011

What is segregationist about splitting humanity between the Chosen and the Gentiles? Umm, could it be the splitting of humanity and the policies of apartheid which stem from this from some Jews who have powers over others?

I therefore do agree it is segregationist. You seem to disagree. Odd that.

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that FD's intentional misquote was misleading (we'll take it as read it was intellectually dishonest too) - and that it undermines your whole argument. I was agreeing with Karmi's view of segregationism.

I asked you, do you agree or disagree with Karmi that segregationism is bad. A simple question. I agree. Do you?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 07, 2011

Umm, could it be the splitting of humanity and the policies of apartheid which stem from this from some Jews who have powers over others?

Sorry, but you haven't shown that any so-called 'policies of apartheid' have stemmed from any Jewish belief.

That's the entire point.

On the other hand, we can see that a non-Jew is typically freer in Israel than a non-Muslim is in a Muslim majority state.

Facts over loon beliefs.

shafique · Oct 07, 2011

No, young one. The entire point is that FD misrepresented a quote from Karmi criticising Segregationism and presented it as evidence of anti-semitism. He left out the starting sentence of the paragraph he quoted WITHOUT reference.

I agree with Karmi's view on segregationism being bad, and that the Jewish doctrine of Chosen vs Gentile is segregationist.

You may wish to hold a different view about segregationism being bad, and may wish to excuse the apartheid policies of the Zionist colonists and modern day extremist Israelis, but that is a different point. You may wish to argue that segregating humanity into 'the chosen' and 'gentiles' is NOT segregationist - that is your right to believe this. I agree with Karmi (and common sense) that it patently is.

Agreeing with Karmi that segregationism in general, and in Israel and Palestine in particular, is bad is what I have done.

The rest is smoke and mirrors on your part (especially the fact that you're quoting different parts of the article, which FD did not reference when he made his misleading quote and subsequent accusations).

Will you at least acknowledge that FD should have quoted Karmi's paragraph in full and given the reference so that people could see he was talking about Palestine?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 07, 2011

I agree with Karmi's view on segregationism being bad, and that the Jewish doctrine of Chosen vs Gentile is segregationist.

You haven't given an argument how it is segregationist or why the Muslim view of dividing the world between Muslim and non-Muslim is not.

You also run away from comparing equality of believers and non-believers in Israel with Muslim majority nations.

As far as questions not answered, there's a whole backlog you've avoided in this thread.

How is Karmi claiming the world is in the strangle grip of Jewish teachings not Antisemitic?

shafique · Oct 08, 2011

Please re-read the first paragraph of my last post and acknowledge what the main point is.

Should you wish to discuss segregationism and whether dividing humanity into the chosen and gentiles is an example of segregationism, we can do that in another thread.

I agree with Karmi that segregationism is bad. IF (or where) Muslims practice segregationism, that too is bad.

I totally agree with Karmi's assessment of Islam, when he contrasts it with the segregationist doctrines :

Islam is unitive and calls for unity, rejects discrimination, especially racism and rejects hegemony on the strength of wealth or power. The Muslim and even the human society as a whole should live as one interrelated society in accordance with the five principles of Islam, namely Unitarianism, egalitarianism, symmetrical recognition, social justice, and universal justice, and should serve as a cardinal law among nations. The case now is different, and that is why Islam is different.

(Reference given before, and from same article FD's misleading quote comes from)

Just parotting and paraphrasing what Karmi did not say won't change the facts eh. Segregationism is bad - that is what he said. FD had to leave out a whole sentence to make it LOOK LIKE Karmi was anti-semitic. He was found out and hasn't got an answer.

It is most loyal of you to take on the case - but you're failing spectacularly so far.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 08, 2011

I've been quoting what Karmi has said for the past several pages but I have not gotten an answer.

But one would like to ask in this connection where does this division of the world’s peoples into Evil and Good come from? The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This [Jewish] doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

I see you have avoided showing a continuous link between so-called "apartheid" practices and this Jewish doctrine you believe controls the world.

You've also avoided comparing how non-Jews fare in Israel to how non-Muslims fare in Muslim majority nations where Islamic Law is a principal source of legislation.

You've also continuously avoided whether believing Islam is especially misogynist and citing the Taliban as proof for Islam's inherent misogynistic beliefs is "Islamophobic".

shafique · Oct 08, 2011

You've been quoting a different part of Karmi's article for a while now - and have yet to acknowledge that FD's quote was deliberately misleading. You quoted this misquote many times and accused me of agreeing with it.

Now that this deceit has been exposed, at least acknowledge it.

But at least now you presumably have read and understood the quote above about how Islam isn't segregationist. Glad we're making progress.

Inserting [Jewish] into the quote above doesn't change the fact that Karmi is talking about Segregationism, and I agree with him on this.

He rightly says that one of the earliest sources of segregationism in the area (note that the article is about Palestine) is from the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity.

Is this not factual? If not, in what way is not factual - does dividing humanity into two not make the doctrine segregationist? Or is the doctrine not one of the first in the region?

Today, segregationism has indeed gripped the world - Karmi gives examples in the article.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 08, 2011

He rightly says that one of the earliest sources of segregationism in the area (note that the article is about Palestine) is from the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity.

Really? Where does he show a direct link that Jewish theology is responsible for so-called segregationist policies in the State of Israel?

Is this not factual? If not, in what way is not factual - does dividing humanity into two not make the doctrine segregationist? Or is the doctrine not one of the first in the region?

You must not be reading my posts too carefully. I've already challenged you to compare so-called segregationist policies of non-Jews in the state of Israel to segregationist/discriminatory policies towards non-Muslims in Muslim majority states where Islam is a primary source of legislation.

You've refused to do that (unsurprisingly).

My other two questions have gone unanswered as well. How have Jews managed to control the world with their theology and is believing Islam to be especially misogynistic and citing Saudi Arabia as proof for that belief "Islamophobic"?

shafique · Oct 08, 2011

eh, try and keep up. Really.

FD misleadingly quoted Karmi in a thread started by Berrin 'Islam and the West'. FD left out the opening sentence about Segregationism. Then he tried to use this misleading quote to accuse Karmi of Anti-Semitism.

Then I tracked down the quote, found it was in an article about Palestine and showed that FD was being deceitful.

Now you seem to want me to justify why Israel's apartheid policies are segregationist or whether they stem from the segregationist doctrine that splits humanity into Chosen and Gentile.

Happy to do so - but that should really be in a separate thread to discuss Segregationism. I asked you what was not factual about Karmi's statements - you've come back with questions which seem to relate to your peculiar interpretation (i.e. spin) on what Karmi wrote.

I agreed with Karmi's article that segregationism is wrong. I've quoted his factual statement which says that Islam is not segregationist. That's a fact. IF muslims choose segregationist policies - they do it in spite of Islamic teachings.

Whataboutery doesn't get you out of the facts of this topic. Fact number one being that FD had to misquote Karmi to make his theory work, and he failed. You're insisting on prolonging his pain - that's a bit cruel of you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Oct 08, 2011

Dude, you realize lately you mention me on average more than once in almost very post. If you wouldn't know better I'd say you are obsessed. Its creepy nonetheless.

shafique · Oct 08, 2011

Or it could be that eh's whole argument about me being an Anti-Semite relies on your deceitful misquote of Karmi.

Shouldn't you help out your young friend - he's desperately trying to avoid talking about the paragraph you quoted and is spinning other bits of the Palestine article by Karmi?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Oct 08, 2011

Flying Dutchman wrote:Dude, you realize lately you mention me on average more than once in almost very post. If you wouldn't know better I'd say you are obsessed. Its creepy nonetheless.

Be afraid FD, be very afraid :evil:

Fat boy's on your case.

event horizon · Oct 09, 2011

shafique wrote:I asked you what was not factual about Karmi's statements - you've come back with questions which seem to relate to your peculiar interpretation (i.e. spin) on what Karmi wrote.

Karmi wrote:But one would like to ask in this connection where does this division of the world’s peoples into Evil and Good come from? The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This [Jewish] doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

shafique · Oct 09, 2011

shafique wrote:The entire point is that FD misrepresented a quote from Karmi criticising Segregationism and presented it as evidence of anti-semitism. He left out the starting sentence of the paragraph he quoted WITHOUT reference.

shafique wrote:Inserting [Jewish] into the quote above doesn't change the fact that Karmi is talking about Segregationism, and I agree with him on this.

He rightly says that one of the earliest sources of segregationism in the area (note that the article is about Palestine) is from the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity.

Is this not factual? If not, in what way is not factual - does dividing humanity into two not make the doctrine segregationist? Or is the doctrine not one of the first in the region?

Today, segregationism has indeed gripped the world - Karmi gives examples in the article.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 09, 2011

So the world is in the grip of Jewish doctrine?

I'm curious, how isn't this an Antisemitic belief?

I'm fascinated to know if preventing non-Muslims from stepping foot inside two otherwise normal cities is by definition segregationist.

shafique · Oct 09, 2011

The world is in the grip of Segregationism, yes, and Karmi gives examples of this.

Inserting [Jewish] into the quote above doesn't change the fact that Karmi is talking about Segregationism, and I agree with him on this.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 09, 2011

But one would like to ask in this connection where does this division of the world’s peoples into Evil and Good come from? The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

Nice try.

I guess this explains why you read the strangest meanings into the verses of the Koran.

The doctrine Karmi is saying has the world in its grip is the Jewish doctrine he claims is segregationist.

Now, about your backlog of questions you're avoiding - is it segregationist to prevent non-Muslims from entering two normal functioning cities Muslims are not restricted from entering?

shafique · Oct 09, 2011

You've put the horse before the cart, eh.

FD misquoted Karmi by cutting out the sentence about Segregationism, and you're trying to have a second go by looking at another paragraph. But here too, the subject is segregationism - and he rightly points out that dividing humanity into two groups is segregationist.

If you read the article, you'll see that the segregationist examples he gives shows that he's not only talking about the segregationist Israeli policies.

As for Islam, I've said a few times that I do agree with Karmi's summing up of Islam - that it is not segregationist.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 09, 2011

But here too, the subject is segregationism - and he rightly points out that dividing humanity into two groups is segregationist.

No, "this doctrine" is referring to the "Jewish doctrine" Karmi was talking about in the previous sentence.

The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

This is basic reading comprehension you're failing at.

I would be surprised that someone who claims to read English would be so bad at understanding the written word but you have a history of distorting what other members write, so your failure to read here is not surprising.

As for Islam, I've said a few times that I do agree with Karmi's summing up of Islam - that it is not segregationist.

So is segregating non-Muslims from two cities Muslims freely enter segregationist or not?

Perhaps Islam's segregationist policy prohibiting non-Muslims from entering two cities explains the discriminatory policies of a number of Muslim majority states?

shafique · Oct 09, 2011

Your wishful thinking and snippets won't disguise the fact that FD's misleading quote comes from an article about segregationism - and which focuses on Palestine.

When you read the whole paragraph, and especially when you read the whole article, you see why FD didn't give a reference when he deceitfully misquoted Karmi.

Projecting your failure to acknowledge Karmi is talking about Segregationism as somehow my failure to read it as you wish is funny.

But I'm glad that you've not attempted to defend FD's misquote (which you parotted in this thread).

I agree with Karmi's quotes - segregationism is bad and Islam's teachings do not allow for segregationism:

Islam is unitive and calls for unity, rejects discrimination, especially racism and rejects hegemony on the strength of wealth or power. The Muslim and even the human society as a whole should live as one interrelated society in accordance with the five principles of Islam, namely Unitarianism, egalitarianism, symmetrical recognition, social justice, and universal justice, and should serve as a cardinal law among nations. The case now is different, and that is why Islam is different.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 10, 2011

No one disputes you're great at avoiding actual points made.

I guess repeating yourself without addressing what's been repeatedly said is all you're left to at this point.

We have a quote from a Muslim Antisemite:

The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

Seems like pure Antisemitism to me.

shafique · Oct 10, 2011

You were also convinced that FD's misleading quote was evidence of anti-semitism.

When the full quote was produced and the deceit exposed, you changed your tune and looked for another quote to selectively quote.

Karmi is stating that a doctrine that splits humanity in two is segregationist, in a paragraph about segregationism. Your desperate attempts at spinning it aren't working.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 10, 2011

Karmi is stating that a doctrine that splits humanity in two is segregationist

Karmi's inability to show a direct link between X and Y notwithstanding, my quote from Karmi has nothing to do with your strawman but with his Antisemitic belief that the world is in the grip of Jewish doctrine.

shafique · Oct 10, 2011

The inability is not on the part of Karmi - he has quite ably stated that splitting humanity in two is segregationist. I agree with him.

He says the world is in the grip of the doctrine of 'Segregationism' and doesn't say the world is in the grip of a 'Jewish doctrine' - no matter how much you wish he wrote this. He clarifies this in the examples he gives after the paragraph you're trying to spin by selectively quoting.

Spin is still failing young one.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 10, 2011

He says the world is in the grip of the doctrine of 'Segregationism' and doesn't say the world is in the grip of a 'Jewish doctrine'

Try again:

The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Jewish doctrine that divides humanity into those who are Chosen and those who are Gentiles. This doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

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