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event horizon · Aug 27, 2011

shafique wrote:I understand that some people think the world is flat and that the moon landings were faked.

However, that doesn't mean that all who choose to believe in Islam are giving up reason and logic. My personal belief is that any religion that asks you to put reason and logic to one side is one that SHOULD be rejected, as if there is a God, He/She/It would have created logic and would not want one to discard it.

That's my take on things.

It is up to people to set up their own tests for a way of life/rules/etc that calls itself religion.

So, what do I want in a religion..? For me the answers include:

1. Something logical
2. Something that promises a clear goal
3. Something that makes a clear difference
4. Something that I can test and meets my needs.

Until I find a better set of rules that are more logical, I'm a Muslim.

What do you want in a religion?

Cheers,
Shafique

philosophy-dubai/superstition-islam-t45790.html

shafique · Aug 27, 2011

^

Please don't tell me eh is bringing up his straw man AGAIN. He failed to show I believe in superstitions in the past (he's pretty used to failing).

By contrast we have many examples of eh's own evasions on some Biblical events (Biblical beliefs he hasn't condemned and which his fellow American Christians believe in literally):

1. Talking donkeys (not to be confused with the loons aka 'talking a$$s'

):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

2. Earth can stop revolving for a day (and the Bible and Science generally):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

3. Eh's belief in Rapture (where he will magically disappear one day):
philosophy-dubai/rapture-day-t46391.html
philosophy-dubai/rapture-t39043.html

So, whilst I'm still waiting for any illogical beliefs within Islam (rather than some Muslims with superstitious beliefs/interpretations), perhaps eh can shed light on his own un-scientific beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Aug 27, 2011

There's a lot of superstitious beliefs in the Koran, including Muhammad seeking refuge from magic/witchcraft.

Do tell, why would Muhammad need Allah's protection over the black arts if they didn't exist?

Koran 113:1;4
Say: 'I take refuge with the Lord of the Daybreak
from the evil of the women who blow on knots,

shafique · Aug 27, 2011

LOL - nice try young one. Just because YOU believe in talking donkeys etc in the Bible, don't project those beliefs on to Muslims in general.

Fail. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

capsicum · Aug 28, 2011

This one is no superstition, it' s straight from the "book"

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

Guys did you know that mosleems beleive $perm come from the chest :lol:

shafique · Aug 28, 2011

Caps (not that you'll bother read it), but your misunderstanding has already been addressed:
philosophy-dubai/the-scientific-miracles-the-holy-quran-t23259-15.html

Now, given that eh believes in talking donkeys - I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'm replying to a vegetable!

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Aug 28, 2011

capsicum wrote:This one is no superstition, it' s straight from the "book"

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

Guys did you know that mosleems beleive $perm come from the chest

Hey Capsi if someone quotes verses like you do but fails to lol as you do, than please refer them to sites like this at least.. :idea:

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2602

capsicum · Aug 28, 2011

shafique wrote:Caps (not that you'll bother read it), but your misunderstanding has already been addressed:
philosophy-dubai/the-scientific-miracles-the-holy-quran-t23259-15.html
Cheers,
Shafique

Misunderstanding?? No ....I just read
and the quran does read:
"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).
It is pretty clear. Now if it is wrong , and moslems know it is wrong, instead of debating why don't they edit the book.

shafique · Aug 28, 2011

Really caps - it isn't really that hard. Just click on the link, read through the explanations and then try and understand what is written.

If you really want to debate, why don't you ask young eh why he believes the Bible is telling the truth when it describes talking donkeys. He's the one with the extremist views, remember and who believes in this illogical view.

Talking donkeys is unambiguous - compare and contrast this with your misunderstanding (after you've read through the explanation).

You could get him to explain this verse to you as well, while you're at it:

Blessed is the one who grabs your babies and smashes them against a rock.

Psalm 137:9

See, it isn't that hard after all. (Perhaps eh will explain to a fellow loon why he believes in talking donkeys and what his explanation is for the violent verse above.)

Cheers,
Shafique

patience · Aug 28, 2011

OOh what a terrible thing to write in a book - but then again I don't believe its us who stone people to death.

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

^it is terrible patience. What is even more shocking is that there is a poster on this forum who is the most extreme religious fanatic here and he makes excuses for the killing of children, and the enslavement of virgins:

philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961.html

Note that this extremist has yet to comment on the verse above. But he normally chooses to hide his beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Aug 29, 2011

shafique wrote:Really caps - it isn't really that hard. Just click on the link, read through the explanations and then try and understand what is written.

Cheers,
Shafique

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

I read this surat in a french quran, it says the same, translated from French to English, it says that a drop is produced bewteen ribs and backbone..... what a jokeSo if it is a mistake in translation it is not just in english. Anyone tried in spanish, russian?
anyways if it was a mistake in translation , Instead of putting links of "explanations" why don't they just correct the quran, replace the words, done, no more explanations.

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

herve, mon ami - why don't you get a friend to explain to you the posts in the linked to thread?

(Hint: why not look up the Arabic word itself, and then check out the explanation?)

Do you believe in talking donkeys?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Aug 29, 2011

I though the quran was self explanatory.
now you tell me it need explanations, links and so forth. one word al shafique: it is BS
To me the thread is pretty clear, the quran does say, in french and in english that sperm is produce between the backbone and ribs. if you are not happy with it talk to the translator.
The one who should read the arabic word are the translators if they got it wrong , not me.

Talking donkeys :lol:

, sure I beleive in them, I have seen lots of them wandering in the desert

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

Well, I wonder if your talking donkeys are the same ones eh believes in.

As for your scholarly interpretation of the one Arabic verse - I'll happily stick to the explanation already given. You seem to think you know better. :roll:

You may want to look up verse 3:7 and let us know what that means.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Aug 29, 2011

shafique wrote:^it is terrible patience. What is even more shocking is that there is a poster on this forum who is the most extreme religious fanatic here and he makes excuses for the killing of children, and the enslavement of virgins:

philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961.html

Note that this extremist has yet to comment on the verse above. But he normally chooses to hide his beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

I oppose killing children who *may* one day dishonor his/her parents.

Do you?

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

Of course I oppose any actual killing of children who may oppose their parents - try and keep up eh. A parable about a vision shown to Moses is hardly the same as your excuses for the actual killing of babies and enslavement of virgins - that's why you're the most extreme religious fanatic here.

Why do you hide your beliefs - is it because you're embarrassed by them?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Aug 29, 2011

shafique wrote:Of course I oppose any actual killing of children who may oppose their parents - try and keep up eh. Cheers,
Shafique

you oppose? right ....but you support a palestinian court when they award only 6 months in prison to the murderous parents. 6 months... a slap on the hand
you dont oppose, al shafique ...you deceit

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

Why do you think I support a judicial decision in Palestine? Do you think I automatically support any judge in any country? :roll:

What part of 'I oppose any actual killing of children' confused you? You really should try visiting planet earth sometimes - don't you get tired living in your fantasy world?

Did you look up 3.7 in the Quran?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Aug 29, 2011

Yes I read 3.7
It sounds to me like some arabs told the author of the book that some of his sayings or actions contradicted verses he released earlier , so he brought 3;7 to get away with it.
Basically saying that his book is not clear and even includes ambiguous sayings on purpose. And he asked mouslims not to follow those who criti( his mistakes.

I can't beleive people kiss the ground for such absurdity.

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

You seem to have read the verse but haven't understood the clear meaning. You do understand that God says there are clear verses which are the basis of Islam and also metaphorical verses, don't you?

What is unclear about that?

Never mind herve, don't let facts get in the way of your imagination - will you? You should stick to writing works of fiction rather than trying to make out you can interpret Arabic verses.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Aug 29, 2011

I understand the quran better than you do, for a simple reason: if you understood the quran you would not be mouslim.
And stop telling me about god said this and that, it s just a book, there is no god

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

LOL - as I said, why do you insist on living in this fantasy world you've constructed. Is it so you can improve your fiction writing abilities?

(I'm constantly amazed how loons make themselves out to be experts on Islam, and yet amuse us with their lack of knowledge at every turn. Makes for a good laugh though.)

I guess we could call you Sheikh Abu Dafda' (sad for short) - what do you think Herve?

Cheers,
Shafique

viking-warrior · Aug 29, 2011

LOL ... indeed Shaf, from the standpoint of an observer of this discussion/debate/lecture is it just me laughing at the irony inherent in relying on the interpretation of a long dead individuals' writings on a mythical all powerful being, saying that someone else lives in a fantasy world ?

Why should Herve's interpretation of what he saw and lived amongst be any less valid than, say, medical rationale integrated as religious doctrine approx 1,400 years ago ?

Religion and bigotry go hand in hand, just wait .... when the Empire invades it will be us Jedi that all you Christians, Muslims, Jews will turn to and then we'll see who pays the ferryman !

Peace, the only religion worth a dam

:lol:

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

Herve is indeed free to recount his works of fiction and put them up for sale - and indeed he's entitled to interpret an Arabic verse of the Quran too. However, trying to say the verse says something different from what it actually says is a bit rich, I think.

The fantasy world that herve has created relates to his views of others - in this case Muslims.

That said, I'm reminded of a definition of a 'Holy War' - viz: Fighting over whose invisible friend is stronger!

Cheers,
Shafique

viking-warrior · Aug 29, 2011

Glad we agree on the definition of a Holy war ....

However, whilst I agree that Herve's experiences have impacted his objectivity re: Islam et al, and that a minumum requirement to even engage in such a topic would require lengthy structured study of the subject in order to formulate well founded debate - I do think that you are more than a little guilty of muddying the waters as well

Having had the opportunity to read his book and having the perspective of having worked within the same group of companies, I can and do testify to the legitimacy of his story with regards to his employer, the modus operandi engaged to corner employees, the fuzzy boundaries between local companies and the judiciary, the fact that influence can and is brought to bear on the judiciary by local companies to secure a favourable outcome and more over, the fact that he escaped rather than leaving the country via DXB airport is the truth.

You are asking us to discount his escape story as a work of fiction by positing that as a fact, a fact that you have determined should be ruled on by you. Sorry Shaf but you are incorrect in your assumption.

Furthermore by extention you brand any interpretation that he may have, as similar fantasy.

Your argument is moot, you cannot quote chapter and verse that says whats said is absolute expect where it isn't, and if it isn't, the interpretation of another meaning is subject to a divine understanding, and anyone that choses to question the ambiguity is looking for an answer that suits them (ergo bad).

You are doing exactly what the Christian Fundimentalists do when cornered, take out the "fatith" card, the magic membership subscription, the ultimate get out. You have it or you don't. (Wanna guess where I stand?)

With regards to Herve, you speak from a position of not knowing the truth, not having been there or subsequently met the man , seen the documentation or even the unpublished photos and emails.

So, with respect, it might it be better if you were rephrase your previous statement as ...

"Herve is indeed free to recount his story, which in my limited opinion are works of fiction, and put them up for sale ..."

Peace

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

Bora says herve has been economical with the truth - I trust her account (checked facts with people who were there, she says).

Ergo - fiction writer.

However, my points of discussion with herve are not about his book and which parts are fabrications, but rather about his fantasies about Islam and Muslims posted on this forum.

He is free to have opinions about Islam and indeed recount his experiences with Muslims/Arabs etc - but to seek to preach what Islam is or to present his interpretation of an Arabic verses as 'fact' will elicit a quizzical and cynical reaction every time.

Thanks for your suggested re-wording of my previous statement to herve about improving his fiction-writing skills. I'm satisfied that it expressed the meaning intended.

Cheers,
Shafique

viking-warrior · Aug 29, 2011

Neither Bora nor her husband have direct knowledge about what did happen or did not happen, their (her) view is an opinion based on word of mouth "tittle tattle" something that Dubai is very good at. Please bear with me - I will get to the point - but in the meantime, please hold up one example where the truth is in doubt in Herve's story, one factlet that you can use to demonstrate that EVERYTHING that he says is a "work of fiction".

His fantasies about Islam and Muslims are his to have, but you do raise an interesting point there when you allow him to 'interpret' what is written.

To a large extent, that is actually what all this is about, is it not. You learn the Quran at the feet of someone who is a little more than an interpretor, someone who prepetuates the school of intepretation that he was raised in, verbatim. In fact, as religions go, Islam is one of the most open, as the notion of interpretation is so firmly seated, not having been subjected to such rigourous preselection procedures as Christianity, yet like mindless sheep so many give up the right of interpretation to follow someone else's view, or as some will look at it, someone else's political, commercial or personal agenda.

I can't think of a primary religion that is actually bad in concept or in its message, it all gets screwed up in political manipulation (interpretation) which at the end of the day benefits one group or another.

In short, Herve or anyone for that matter is permitted to interpret what is written, in the hope that through in his (or her?) interpretation he may himself find truth and God (Allah)

Just who are you to stamp his interpretation as right or wrong, let him speak and by his own mouth damn himself, or not, as the case may be.

In closing, I find it a little sad that someone as eloquent as yourself cannot bring yourself to concede that brandishing someone a liar, without personal knowledge of the facts undermines your own foundation for preaching about anything.

Two wrongs must make a right where you come from ...

Toodle pip

shafique · Aug 29, 2011

VW, you're missing a simple fact in this case.

The fantasies and fiction I'm challenging herve on are the ones he's written about in these forums. I've made reference to the fictional parts of his book too - but only in context of comments relating to his fantasies about Islam.

It is not as if herve has provided an exegesis of a particular verse of the Quran - hardly, what he's only done is issue hate filled rhetoric about 'cults' etc. Note that his contribution above was soley what the French translation said and a rather grand statement that he understands the Quran better than me. Perhaps he does, but there's little evidence of that from his posts.

I'm NOT saying he should desist from expressing his views. I am saying that he shouldn't be surprised if his fantasies are challenged and exposed.

Freedom of speech surely extends to me exposing and labelling fantasies when they are presented.

Toodle pip.

Cheers,
Shafique

gertrude · Aug 29, 2011

shafique wrote:
I've made reference to the fictional parts of his book too Cheers,
Shafique

would you mind sharing?
did you read his book?

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