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benwj wrote:If you believe in fate, or 'will of god' as you call it, then, by definition, you must also accept that it can be predicted. How this is done is anyone's guess.

Those that believe in God tend to also believe that the future is not yet fully written - for otherwise there would be no point in praying (for it is all pre-destined). Muslims, for example, have the example of the people of Jonah in the Quran (he who was swallowed by the 'fish') - in the Quran it says that Jonah told the people that God had informed him that they would be punished for their crimes. The whole town repented and wailed and cried and prayed. God forgave them - and thus the future was changed.

But in another way, you are right - the Bible and Quran etc say that only God knows the future - and that one way of recognising a true Prophet (literally, as well as in the Divine sense) is to see whether their predictions come true (and if they are made in the name of God). This criteria is actually in the OT - Deut 18:20 (IIRC).

So for believers of the Bible and Quran - those claiming to predict the future by 'fortune telling' are charlatans. Indeed it was to test out this claim that I went and did my research into the art form - and it is still a hobby of mine (magic).

As for Lost - I know what you mean! At least the Islamic viewpoint of pre-destiny, fortune telling etc is less confusing than the plot of Lost.

cheers,
Shafique

But even if you could predict someone's death or how they would die, would you (be allowed to) tell them? Could that person then not try to avoid the fatal events? I'm thinking Final Destination here.

Fortune telling not only is "haram" in Islam (to be allowed in Dubai), but also is a pile of rubbish.

No one can predict what is going to happen in the future!!!

If so, fortune tellers would be billionaires by picking the right (winning) lottery numbers every time!!!!!!

shafique wrote:Surely if astrology, tarot cards, tea leaves, chicken bones etc etc worked, we'd be able to find some examples of headlines such as 'Psychic wins lottery' or 'Planes will fly into twin towers in September' (published before 9/11) etc.

To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone who predicted that Princess Di would die when she did (and yet each year astrologers did predict what would happen to her and other celebrities), or that 9/11 would happen.

But then again - perhaps there are examples that I'm not aware of??

TJ - great minds...

So, no one here has any examples of fortune tellers hitting the mark in ways that can't be explained by cold reading techniques.

I think that gives the 'non-believers' more comfort than the 'believers' - but I suspect it won't shake the faith of the 'believers' (in fortune telling).

Cheers,
Shafique

Cross my palm with silver 'my dear', and I'll tell you ANYTHING you wish to hear.

LOL - it really doesn't work like that - too many variables.

Aah yes! I remember how it used to work, when the Gypsy women used to call door to door with baskets of home made clothes pegs made of firewood, knitted toilet roll covers and flowers, made of dyed wood shavings & privet twigs and other good luck charms and amulets to sell, where your Mother would receive a positive and glowing free reading if she purchased well and a free curse put upon the family if she didn’t, my Mother was so petrified of the Gypsies curse she would pay them to go away. You had then to keep the dog outside and lock everything away for the next couple of nights that was in view to the Gypsy woman as her secondary task was to case the joint for anything worth stealing! and then expect a visit from her husband if you had a drive or footpath that needed resurfacing with ‘some of the black stuff we’ve got left over from a job sorrr’

Aah the good old days!

Please note, the above content is not for the eyes of DDS as I fear it will only aggravate his xenophobia and cause him to make further derogatory comment.

Oh so I'm a xenophobe now because don't support Israeli Govt policy. Make up your minds will ya. So what is it. Holocaust denier, Zionist or a Xenophobe. Make up yer minds will ya ?

How but you sprinkle some of that wisdom on your posse member BM. Who clearly has a problem with British citizens of Asian origin, Muslims and the some of their attire.

No DDS, you’re confused again, Your Xenophobia is related to your recent comments regarding Limey’s, JBR Posse, English Banter, POHM’s and then there was your little vent;

contrary to your beliefs not every one speaks pom. Ask anyone who isn't one, who has been misfortunate enough to hang around listening to it. Specially when two geezers start havin' a go at it,

" Oh, mate I remember I was a just a young lad back in Auchtermuchty I use to love watching Alcock and Gander on telly while eating spotted d!ck sponge pudding, good ol' Beryl Reid. She was a bit daft eh, but always good for a laugh I reckon " ???????’

The other labels for you were made by others based on your previous statements, I’ve no doubt they will elaborate in time, However, I wouldn’t personally take anything seriously that was posted by that fool Gadfly, I would ban him or at best just ignore him.

Oh that hardly qualifies as xenophobic, slightly rascist at best. But just goes to show If I were xenophobic or didn't like the brits I wouldn't even know what a pom or spotted banana sponge pudding is. I doubt many non brits here even know what those are.

That kind of info only comes from close contact. Or I wouldn't have worked for the longest time in a industry which require long up and personel time on a daily basis with the brits and germans. Have you seen me bash brits regurlarly ? There are many here DK, Chocs, sage, Arnie to name a few you can ask them if I have ever show any dislike, xenophobia or bias towards the British people.

All nationalities are bashed here from time to time Indians, Pakistanis, Phillipinos, Americans, Emaratis etc etc. So I'm sorry your allegations are misplaced.

And like I said you never said anything about your mate in regards to "brits" which actually fits the more defenition of xeneophobia.

But hey what do I know I'm just a xenophobic holocaust deneying palestenian loving muslim zionist

desertdudeshj wrote:Oh so I'm a xenophobe now because don't support Israeli Govt policy. Make up your minds will ya. So what is it. Holocaust denier, Zionist or a Xenophobe. Make up yer minds will ya ?

How but you sprinkle some of that wisdom on your posse member BM. Who clearly has a problem with British citizens of Asian origin, Muslims and the some of their attire.

Well you are definately a halocaust denier, by your own admission.
You are definately not (100%) a Zionist, as I said in reply to that post, you are just a misguided harmless soul in my opinion.
The last time I looked I wasn't a member of any crew, isn't that for the playground? You may feel the need to be part of a posse LOL but I do not. I am more than happy to be on my own.

Yes I do have a problem with attire worn by foreigners in my country and people who become British Citizens at the drop of a hat. To clarify that it's not just Asians but any foreigners. Is that giving you more ammunition? You see BM at her most helpful! It's my country and therefore have a right to an opinion, just as you do in yours.

Bethsmum wrote:Well you are definately a halocaust denier, by your own admission.

For the second time I urge you to show me where ?

The second time? When was the first? I must have slept through that one. When I have a few minutes I'll trawl through your stuff and find it. I'll need a drink first.

-- Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:49 pm --

Bethsmum wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to forget the USS Liberty. And yes I would also thank BM for sharing thats story with us aswell, very interesting indeed.

But I guess that my crude sarcasm hold true then. Since they suffered a holocaust they are entitled to one free genocide !? Making sure they never have to suffer like that again does not give them the right to put others through the same. Thats flawed logic if you ask me, kinda like ,I was abused as a child so thats why I am a serial killer today. A insanity defence.

TJ is on to something here but until that happens the international community needs to keep on pressurizing both sides. If the US just closes its dole tap on Israel ( which makes a major part of Israels budget ) and the Arabs also stop suporting and aiding the Palestenians, until these both sort it out, this way I think a solution would be reached very fast.

And guess there is a whole another debate in this thread aswell. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Like the Indian freedom fighters labeled patriots by the Indians and terrorist and rebels by the British. The Afghan Mujahideen rebels to the USSR army but freedom fighters to the rest. So who's right ?

Are you seriously comparing what is going on with the Palestinians to the Holocaust? What you need is a reality trip to Auswitz, Belsen or any of the other camps. What a totally ridiculous thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.
quote]

There you go, and without having to be sedated.

Read through DDs post and can't find where he is denying the holocaust. By saying "they suffered a holocaust" is acknowleding that it happened. And using it as a comparison to what has happened (the holocaust) to what is happening in Palestine is acknowledgement, but that's just the way I read it.

Bethsmum wrote:The second time? When was the first? I must have slept through that one. When I have a few minutes I'll trawl through your stuff and find it. I'll need a drink first.

-- Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:49 pm --

Bethsmum wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to forget the USS Liberty. And yes I would also thank BM for sharing thats story with us aswell, very interesting indeed.

But I guess that my crude sarcasm hold true then. Since they suffered a holocaust they are entitled to one free genocide !? Making sure they never have to suffer like that again does not give them the right to put others through the same. Thats flawed logic if you ask me, kinda like ,I was abused as a child so thats why I am a serial killer today. A insanity defence.

TJ is on to something here but until that happens the international community needs to keep on pressurizing both sides. If the US just closes its dole tap on Israel ( which makes a major part of Israels budget ) and the Arabs also stop suporting and aiding the Palestenians, until these both sort it out, this way I think a solution would be reached very fast.

And guess there is a whole another debate in this thread aswell. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Like the Indian freedom fighters labeled patriots by the Indians and terrorist and rebels by the British. The Afghan Mujahideen rebels to the USSR army but freedom fighters to the rest. So who's right ?

Are you seriously comparing what is going on with the Palestinians to the Holocaust? What you need is a reality trip to Auswitz, Belsen or any of the other camps. What a totally ridiculous thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.
quote]

There you go, and without having to be sedated.

Again for a third time now, show me where I have denied the holocaust. And yes I stand by what I've said. That there are very many similarities between Gaza and starting of the holocaust. The Warsaw ghetto was not much unlike the gaza of today and eventually lead to the grave tragedy : The holocaust as we know it today.

And I also believe if there was no international pressure, free flow of information and zero condemnation It is not unthinkable juding from previous acts by the Israelis that it could escalate to a full blow genocide. It has happened in our times in places like Ruwanda and the former Yugolsavia.

I believe people like you, the Israeli govt and the jewish people across the globe vow never again. And i agree with that 100% and thats why it should stop before it goes any further.

and no SHAME ON YOU for being a liar and making false accusations.

One of the most notable anti-Semitic propaganda movements to develop over the past two decades has been the organized effort to deny or minimise the established history of Nazi genocide against the Jews. The roots of Holocaust denial can be found in the bureaucratic language of Nazi policy itself, which sought to camouflage the genocidal intent of what the Nazis called the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question," even as these directives were being carried out.

Holocaust Denial can take on many forms, from the well publicised views of our latest Forum member, Gadfly, to the denial of a simple piece of historical fact, whether part of the established anti-Semitic propaganda movement or an individuals personal opinion. As previously stated, one known method of Holocaust denial is to minimise the established history of Nazi genocide against the Jews, and one way in an attempt to achieve this would be to liken or associate it to a more recent event that people can identify with but one of a much lesser magnitude.

Whether this is done intentionally or through a lack of understanding of the earlier event.

In the Warsaw Ghettoes;
The Jews were incarcerated with several families living in single rooms.
They were under curfew every night and shot if found on the streets after curfew.
The able bodied Men, Women and children were enslaved and used in the Nazi war effort and used as target practice for the Nazi troops and officers at the end of their useful life.
They were robbed of all possessions.
They were harvested for Hair and Gold Teeth while still alive.
They were used as medical guinea pigs and amongst other diseases were intentionally infected with Anthrax, Typhoid, STD’s, Yellow Fever, Malaria, and Smallpox.
The attractive women, single or married, were homed in brothels for use by the Nazi troops and officers.

And it goes on, it’s all well documented and a matter of historical fact.

I don’t think any of this has happened in Gaza.

Now, DDS has on several occasions likened the situation of the Gaza residents to that of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghettoes he has also suggested that as the Jews suffered a Holocaust they were entitled to a Genocide of their own, and therein lies the problem. While he openly admits to the Holocaust taking place, he expresses an opinion that contradicts his statements. By likening the plight of the Gaza Citizens to the Holocaust, he is minimising the Holocaust and in my mind guilty of Holocaust Denial.

In my personal opinion, I don’t think DDS fully understands what went on during WW2 and I have previously suggested, as well as BM, that he does a little more research on the subject before making such rash statements.

Always there to back up your posse eh ? The JBR is strong in you old wise one. And I've done enough research and very fimilar the holocaust. And thank you for the unwarranted and unnecessary history lesson

No, its you who wants to trivialise the Israeli aggresion by attempting to deny the similarities. Can you honestly tell me there is no comparison between Gazza under seige and the warsaw ghetto. And the problem is your thought process. The Israel is entitled to one free genocide of its own ( actually a quote taken from the Israeli paper The haarets ) was said in response to that israeli thinks it has a free wild card and can do willy nilly without question upto a genocide. Take it for what it is and not what you want it to be.

The pro Israeli fans always get their knickers in twist when comparisons of the Holocaust and the south african aparthied are made. Now you'll tell me I'm a racist and I hate all Africans. You have already called me xenophobe. Throwing out lables of being an anti semite and holocaust denier to quash anyone who might condemn the Israeli govt is very common. A very old, tactic but one which has already lost all effectiveness is

So please take your little history lessons to someone who actually needs them, like you mate BM who is a clearly needs them more than anyone else over here. Its very evident your very biased aswell but very diplomatic about it and blunt like your mate. Which is actually preferred, atleast you know where she stands and not beating about the bush.

How did fortune telling get onto Holocaust denial, and denial of Holocaust denial, and the cynical use of Holocaust denial allegations to stifle criticism of Israeli crimes?

I didn't see that one coming!



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:How did fortune telling get onto Holocaust denial, and denial of Holocaust denial, and the cynical use of Holocaust denial allegations to stifle criticism of Israeli crimes?

I didn't see that one coming!



Cheers,
Shafique

I guess you would have to ask DD about that. Possibly he thought he was on a different thread???

shafique wrote:How did fortune telling get onto Holocaust denial, and denial of Holocaust denial, and the cynical use of Holocaust denial allegations to stifle criticism of Israeli crimes?

I didn't see that one coming!



Cheers,
Shafique

Perhaps there is a link.

The discussion of an old event, whether it happened or not happened decades ago, somewhat falls in the category of being of "no value," just like fortune telling!!!!

Tom Jones wrote:The discussion of an old event, whether it happened or not happened decades ago, somewhat falls in the category of being of "no value," just like fortune telling!!!!

Right on Bro, and shfa don't ask me I have no idea ask the JBR clan. I've had an intresting week here on DF, started off with me being a Zionist to the latest of being a Xenophobe in this thread

I think I have a right to be a little chuffed with myself

Same old rule here:
As long as there is demand there is supply.

On that note, I suggest this thread be declared closed!!!!!

DDS, there you go bigging yourself up again, what an unattractive quality that is in a man! If your comments mean you can feel chuffed with yourself, then you really are sad.
it would be a waste of my time going over your holocaust denial again, Dillon speaks so well I really couldn't add anything to it but to reiterate my thoughts that to compare the loss of 6 million Jews to the likes of the Palestinians is truely shameful.
I do feel a it sorry for you, you are obviously threatened by what you term the JBR posse, why so? You have your friend DK, who will no doubt drag himself to your defence when he rouses himself from his passion wagon.
Anyways if you wipe your nose and stop sniveling i will let you join my posse, mind you, it will just be me and you, but we are affiliated to the Staines massiv init. I will even relax my rule that you have to have a BMW or Range Rover, but I draw the line of cruising the walk with you.

I’m sorry DDS but you’ve failed miserably in trying to impress me with comments you’ve stolen from other DF Zealots, I will only find solace in the hope that one day you will see the error in your ways and come to realise how immature and gullible you were!

Oh don't be so full of yourself bud, no one was trying to impress you. And I hope one day you will actually see things the way they are and over come your biases.

Cheers

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Don't fall for their tricks, all lies and deceit...and for the Muslims, it is utterly haram.